Crystals in urate?

[hmarie186]

This isn't the first time I've seen this from Edgar. His poos and urates never looked like this before. When fresh they have a small mucusy looking blob but it's not like diarrhea/irritated colon mucus. When it dries it gets this yellow tinge and almost a crystal look to it. Here's the breakdown of everything so far:

He's been tested for crypto and parasites both negative.
Two different vets have told me it's nothing to worry about and he appears healthy.
Diet consists of a mix of blue bottle fly larvae, dubias and occasionally mealworms (we've cut them down to every other week because he is now on a low fat diet).
Roaches and mealworms are fed a mix of greens, oranges and sweet potatoes with Purina Layena crumbles as dry diet. It is fortified with vit A.
He was being supplemented twice a week with plain calcium and once a week with Reptivite with d3.
Urates have been about half yellow for several mos.
In the past 3 weeks he has barely went in his moist hide. I have changed the paper towels, used 3 different kinds of water (tap, bottled spring and zero water) and nothing makes a difference.
I have only seen him drink once ever.
Sheds normal, activity normal, appetite normal.

I suspected I was supplementing too much so the urate part has actually whitened up to almost 100% since I have stopped supplements for a week. My concern is that the reptivite has vit A and the sweet potatoes have vit a and too much is causing the yellow. Side note: Tidus has white urates. I was using carrots for the feeders and the yellow was worse. My other suspicion is he is not getting enough moisture between never drinking and now boycotting the moist hide. Could that cause the weird crystal looking yellow mucus thing? When fresh, there is still some watery moisture around his urate and poo. I am picking up some hornworms today or tomorrow to introduce some more moisture hopefully into his diet. Last time I bought them he ate a few and the rest turned into moths. :/ Has anyone ever has this issue and what causes it? I'm stumped!

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I have never seen feces like the one of Edgar's you picture.

• Sweet potatoes and carrots are high in vitamin A. How about ceasing both and see what happens to Edgar's urates? I understand that Tidus has white urates under the same circumstances.
• Probably all the vitamin A your leos need is contained in the Purina Layena Sunfresh Crumbles and the Reptivite.
• Is Edgar's humid hide a good size? Was that Edgar I saw in a plastic humid hide recently? He looked kinda cramped.
• Are you keeping the hornworms about 55*F? That has worked for me.

 

[hmarie186]

Here's a pic of Edgar's moist hide (with him finally in it after a perfect shed!), on the warm side of the tank of course

Sorry for the crappy quality but this iPad takes terrible photos!

I don't have access to dandelion greens so what can I sub the mealworms moisture for? The roaches are easy because they have no substrate but the worms are directly in the crumbles and I don't want them to mold.

The hornworms (which I wasn't able to get) are always kept in a wine cooler set at 50F.

I may order some silkworm eggs instead.

The other thought I entertained is perhaps a probiotic could clear up the weird mucusy thing? It seemed we didn't start to have a problem until he was dewormed from the pins he had. There is a supplement called NutriBac that I was debating trying and just lightly dusting his food maybe once a week for a month and seeing if it makes a difference. Thoughts?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Good job, Edgar! We like perfect sheds!!!

So 50 F does a good job for hornworms in your wine cooler?

How about leaving chopped collard greens in a shallow lid next to the crumbles? That's what I've seen others do. I wonder whether a damp paper towel in a shallow lid right next to the crumbles might also work for mealies.

Never had occasion to use a probiotic like NutriBac.

 

[hmarie186]

Well I have ordered horns for the boys and they will ship Monday with the holiday shipping schedule and all. I decided to go with green cabbage for the moisture. It's like 1.2:1 calcium: phosphorus ratio and contains almost no vitamin A. And it's cheap. Between that and the horns we'll see how he does. He has also been in his moist hide a bit more but his poops still look weird and urates slightly yellow.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Well I have ordered horns for the boys and they will ship Monday with the holiday shipping schedule and all. I decided to go with green cabbage for the moisture. It's like 1.2:1 calcium : phosphorus ratio and contains almost no vitamin A. And it's cheap. Between that and the horns we'll see how he does. He has also been in his moist hide a bit more but his poops still look weird and urates slightly yellow.

Is green cabbage the same as Chinese cabbage?

 

[hmarie186]

Chinese cabbage is "napa cabbage." I got a whole head of just plain green head cabbage for 69c so even cheaper than sweet potatoes. His urates yesterday were back to yellow and crystal looking. I currently have everything feasting on cabbage but I know it will take awhile for all that vit A to flush out of their systems. He has been in his moist hide more. The only ones unhappy about the cabbage switch are the breeder roaches. They are boycotting it currently. I said fine, you'll eat it before you dehydrate! should I still discontinue supplements or should I give calcium again?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Well I have ordered horns for the boys and they will ship Monday with the holiday shipping schedule and all. I decided to go with green cabbage for the moisture. It's like 1.2:1 calcium: phosphorus ratio and contains almost no vitamin A. And it's cheap. Between that and the horns we'll see how he does. He has also been in his moist hide a bit more but his poops still look weird and urates slightly yellow.

Chinese cabbage is "napa cabbage." I got a whole head of just plain green head cabbage for 69c so even cheaper than sweet potatoes. His urates yesterday were back to yellow and crystal looking. I currently have everything feasting on cabbage but I know it will take awhile for all that vit A to flush out of their systems. He has been in his moist hide more. The only ones unhappy about the cabbage switch are the breeder roaches. They are boycotting it currently. I said fine, you'll eat it before you dehydrate! should I still discontinue supplements or should I give calcium again?

Edgar could have some issues with his feces looking like in post #1. How about asking his reptile vet?

How often are you using calcium with D3?

Have you seen the feces pictures posted in Sleepy Dee's leo care sheet: SleepyDee Gecko's - Leopard Geckos, African Fat-Tailed Geckos, Geckonia chazaliae, Tarentola chazalia, Underwoodisaurus milii, Nephrurus milii, Teratolepis fasciata, Hemidactylus imbricatus, Lepidactylus lugubris, Nephrurus levis levis, care, health

 

[hmarie186]

I have seen SleepyDee's poo pictures. None of them look like it really. I was reading some cham forums and someone was having yellow urate issues with a completely hydrated animal. Everyone told her he wasn't drinking then because his urates were yellow but she said she watched him drink several times a day. However, he did not poop everyday. A vet chimed in and said he's seen when the urates stay in the body alittle too long and before being excreted the body will pull extra moisture out and they can appear yellow. I forget the exact scientific reasoning. This may be the closest explanation I have. He eats and most of the time doesn't poop the next day. He's between one 3/4" roach a day but sometimes skips. I've discontinued mealworms with him except pupae every other week which are softer and have less chitin in case he is having issues "moving things along." He gets blue bottles too which are completely soft.

His reptivite has d3 so the calcium I supplement with is plain calcium carbonate. I was supplementing reptivite on Sundays and calcium on mwf for both. Then I cut Edgar down to Tue Thursday but then he changed his eating schedule again and wants a roach everyday (he waits for it and gets uber excited when he sees it!) I'd like to go back to feeding every other day and using a multi once a week and calcium once? His vet just says to leave it all in the cage and he e 'll get what he needs. He used to breed geckos large scale so of course he would say that.

ETA: Pic of todays poo that shows that mucus blob thing. You can clearly see he has a very healthy, normal color, nice sized poo. If it was colon irritation like from something he ate I would expect to see it soft or runny but it's not.

 

[hmarie186]

Emailed pics to his vet today and he says I can try a probiotic for the mucusy blob thing but all his poo pics look normal and not to worry. He says the urates can be yellow or orange or white, and that the feeder's diet and the feeders he's eating are fantastic. Sigh. Am I just a crazy worry wart? This vet is one of the best in the entire state, and has bred leopards for 30 years. :/

 

[Tongue Flicker]

Crystals in ureate often indicate a high oxalate content from the diet of its previous prey. I've seen this in some of my skinks that feed on blue bottle fly larvae that has been accidentally eating photos and water lettuce (pistia) which are high in oxalates as well as some of my snakes that has been feeding quial babies that are on a weed diet.

Try cleansing your feeders by feeding them water rich foods like cabbages, lettuces and watermelons so they can flush/detox naturally for about 48 hours then proceed with your usual gutloading regimen

 

[hmarie186]

Thanks Neil! My blue bottles I ordered several mos ago I have not fed because when I do they all seem to pupate in an instant. Should I maybe try and feed them some lean meat? They still occasionally pupate in the fridge or die so I clean them out a few times a week. Do the oxalate-high feeders cause any issues with the geckos health? I have fully switched their moisture source to green cabbage but still not seeing any improvement in the crystals. Should I just give it more time? Could the chicken feed I'm using be high in oxalates? How do you know?

ETA: did some research and found sweet potatoes which is what I was feeding the bugs have 141 mg oxalates per 4 oz serving. A food with 10-50mg is considered high. It also lists wheat bran being high and I think the Layena crumbles have wheat in them. High oxalates is thought to be a contributor to kidney stones and gout in people, not sure about geckos.

 

[Tongue Flicker]

The fact that your gecko passes them out as crystals is fine. It means that your gecko is healthy enough not to sequester the trace oxalates in his/her kidneys. Just make sure your gecko is drinking enough water as well. Secondary predators like leos are less likely to have oxalate related problems than herbivorous reptiles do since the feeders have mostly digested them.

Oh then i remembered, your case also happens when you feed a recently gutloaded feeder less than 24 hours after it was gutloaded. Meaning the feeders hasn't synthesized their food yet so most of the trace elements from their food is just there in suspension so if a leo eats them then the digestion of these elements is passed on to the leo which is somehow bad in a sense that leos don't have the proper diestive enzymes to break plant material down hence the crystals.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I have seen SleepyDee's poo pictures. None of them look like it really. I was reading some cham forums and someone was having yellow urate issues with a completely hydrated animal. Everyone told her he wasn't drinking then because his urates were yellow but she said she watched him drink several times a day. However, he did not poop everyday. A vet chimed in and said he's seen when the urates stay in the body alittle too long and before being excreted the body will pull extra moisture out and they can appear yellow. I forget the exact scientific reasoning. This may be the closest explanation I have. He eats and most of the time doesn't poop the next day. He's between one 3/4" roach a day but sometimes skips. I've discontinued mealworms with him except pupae every other week which are softer and have less chitin in case he is having issues "moving things along." He gets blue bottles too which are completely soft.

His reptivite has d3 so the calcium I supplement with is plain calcium carbonate. I was supplementing reptivite on Sundays and calcium on mwf for both. Then I cut Edgar down to Tue Thursday but then he changed his eating schedule again and wants a roach everyday (he waits for it and gets uber excited when he sees it!) I'd like to go back to feeding every other day and using a multi once a week and calcium once? His vet just says to leave it all in the cage and he e 'll get what he needs. He used to breed geckos large scale so of course he would say that.

ETA: Pic of todays poo that shows that mucus blob thing. You can clearly see he has a very healthy, normal color, nice sized poo. If it was colon irritation like from something he ate I would expect to see it soft or runny but it's not.
View attachment 33335

Emailed pics to his vet today and he says I can try a probiotic for the mucusy blob thing but all his poo pics look normal and not to worry. He says the urates can be yellow or orange or white, and that the feeder's diet and the feeders he's eating are fantastic. Sigh. Am I just a crazy worry wart? This vet is one of the best in the entire state, and has bred leopards for 30 years. :/

How old are Edgar and Tidus?

Your Reptivite has D3, calcium carbonate, and vitamin A acetate; Purina Layena Sunfresh Crumbles probably have D3, calcium carbonate, and vitamin A too. Since you feed the Blaptica dubia a healthy dry diet consistently, how about cutting back Zoo Med's Reptivite to 1x every other week with 1x per week plain calcium carbonate on those weeks and 2x per week on the no Reptivite weeks? Crumbles and the cabbage seem to be good. That way Edgar and Tidus will be getting those important nutrients directly through their food. That's really best.

So that would be:
Reptivite with D3 1x every other week; plain calcium carbonate 1x that week.
Plain calcium carbonate 2x per week on the off weeks when you do not use the Reptivite.

Is this \/ similar to the yellow urate explanation you saw on the cham forum?
#105---Yellow Urates: Potential Causes......January 2015
Contributed by a vet who also keeps leopard geckos:

"Urate color depends upon things like diet, health, et cetera. Generally urates are very white. More pigmented (especially green) urates can indicate an issue. It is possible that if the animal has not passed stool or urates for some time there can be a little staining of the urate portion of the waste products. I also think that this is sometimes the case if the stool is loose. Then there is a greater chance for pigments to bleed from feces to urates. If it is just little off-color I would keep an eye on it and if it is infrequent I wouldn’t worry. If we are talking dark yellow or green that's biliverdin and it implies that there something more serious going on.

Reptiles lack an enzyme called biliverdin reductase that allows them to convert biliverdin to bilirubin (as mammals do). So their bile is green. If the liver cannot handle removing it from the bloodstream efficiently, levels can exceed the renal threshold and spill into the urates. That would result in the urates being a greenish yellow to green color. What confounds this is that there's some mixing of feces and urine/urates in the cloaca so that some fecal pigments can stain the urates a light yellow color."

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Neil ~

:cheer: for your contributions. They R-E-A-L-L-Y help! You do a great job explaining stuff.

 

[Tongue Flicker]

It's mainly just a compilation of everything i read from different kind of exotic animal forums over the past few years as well as my personal experiences. I noticed diet/health/nutrition overlaps when it comes to different animals so just bring that all together, apply it to experience and pitch in some thoughts, if need to. No biggie

 

[hmarie186]

Oh then i remembered, your case also happens when you feed a recently gutloaded feeder less than 24 hours after it was gutloaded. Meaning the feeders hasn't synthesized their food yet so most of the trace elements from their food is just there in suspension so if a leo eats them then the digestion of these elements is passed on to the leo which is somehow bad in a sense that leos don't have the proper diestive enzymes to break plant material down hence the crystals.

Hm. I don't gut load my feeders. They have their dry diet and fresh fruits or veggies available to them 24/7 so perhaps some of what you say is coming from food that hasn't been utilized yet in the feeders bodies?

 

[hmarie186]

How old are Edgar and Tidus?

Your Reptivite has D3, calcium carbonate, and vitamin A acetate; Purina Layena Sunfresh Crumbles probably have D3, calcium carbonate, and vitamin A too. Since you feed the Blaptica dubia a healthy dry diet consistently, how about cutting back Zoo Med's Reptivite to 1x every other week with 1x per week plain calcium carbonate on those weeks and 2x per week on the no Reptivite weeks? Crumbles and the cabbage seem to be good. That way Edgar and Tidus will be getting those important nutrients directly through their food. That's really best.

So that would be:
Reptivite with D3 1x every other week; plain calcium carbonate 1x that week.
Plain calcium carbonate 2x per week on the off weeks when you do not use the Reptivite.

Edgar is a little over 14 mos. Tidus we estimated he was born around June 15 judging by his baby bands, length and weight when I got him so he is close to 7 mos.

Should I still do reptivite every week for T and calcium three times a week because he's growing or would it be ok to put them both on the same schedule? I worry about MBD with him because he was not supplemented early in life until he came to live with us. His diet was mealworms in a bowl and free range crickets at Petco.

 

[Tongue Flicker]

Hm. I don't gut load my feeders. They have their dry diet and fresh fruits or veggies available to them 24/7 so perhaps some of what you say is coming from food that hasn't been utilized yet in the feeders bodies?

Yup exactly that.