females aren't eating so much and have become picky

[amsdadtodd]

Of my four leos, two are females and two are males.
The males are voracious eaters and love to hunt.

The females have always been less gluttonous and not so motivated to hunt. When I put crickets in their cages, they would each have one and then stop. They are a bit quicker to take mealworms, but only slightly.

When I become concerned, I give each of the girls two hornworms, hoping to stimulate a feeding response. They gobble them up quite readily, but then return to their pattern of slow eating. I only feed the hornworms about once every two weeks, as I've read that it's possible to spoil them. I have also occasionally fed the girls turkestan roaches, which they also eat readily, but my colony isn't yet a fast producer and I don't have a local supply of them.

I'm concerned that they aren't eating like the boys, and occasionally see their tales diminishing slightly.

My husbandry is identical for all four, each have their own 20 gal long tank with UTH keeping the warm side generally around 90, cool sides are 78-80. 1 moist and two dry hides in each with water bowls in the center.

Any suggestions are welcome, including any that say I'm worrying too much!
Thank you!
Todd

 

[arawn]

Check the belly of your females, are you seeing pink circles or white ovoid shapes?

 

[amsdadtodd]

No, but they are also not quite a year old yet, and not full sized, so I don't think eggs are the issue yet. I should have probably mentioned their age in the original post.
Thank you,
Todd

 

[arawn]

They can produce eggs as soon as 8 months old. I had the case very often. Are you feeding them everyday? When they grow older, leopard geckos need less food. Around 8 months to a year, feeding them every 3 days is better to stimulate their appetite. Once adults, once every 5 days is better.

Leopard geckos tend to become picky when they have food very often and lose the will to eat. In wilderness, they eat huge quantities every 2 to 3 weeks, when insects are becoming adults and spawn massively. Between these huge meals, they eat what they can and not everyday, little rodents, other geckos species or leopard geckos juveniles, sometimes scorpions and of course insects.
Their body is made to stock the huge meals, then eat a few for a while. To stimulates their appetite, you can try not feeding them for a week. Then give them a little food. Not feeding them regularly is good too, sometimes feed once every 2 days, after that 4 days, then 3 days... It will make them understand that insects will not be available very often and that they need to eat when they find a prey.

Of course parasites can also be brought by crickets. Check the poops, the weight of the geckos etc. If they are quickly losing weight , bring some stools to the vet and ask for an analysis. Most of the time, parasites are easy to deal with. Most parasites will make the geckos stop feeding when they are too many, and make the poop grey or greenish. People are always talking about coccidies, but it's not the most common one. Round and flat worms are the most common, make the geckos lose weight, stop feeding... but a simple treatment, very often a liquid solution, will be enough to cure them.

 

[B&B Geckos]

They are most likely ovulating.

 

[LEOPARD1]

Don't freak out. They are most likely ovulating. My oldest girl didn't eat for almost 3 weeks. If it is still an issue give them a varied diet. If they decline make a vet appt.

I have it good..

 

[arawn]

To stop the ovulation, you can lower the temps for a week around 80 degrees. Most of time it works well.

 

[amsdadtodd]

Thank you for your responses all, it sounds like the consensus is that they are ovulating.
I don't think that parasites are the issue, as the mealworms and crickets which I feed all four of my leos come from the same bin, and the males are fine. Also, no loss of mass has been rapid, and the feces all appear normal even under 200x magnification.
arawn, you mentioned stopping ovulation by lowering temps. Is there a reason why it should be stopped? I don't plan on breeding yet, but is unproductive ovulation a problem?

Thank you,
Todd

 

[arawn]

When females are ovulating, 2 scenarios can occur. On the one hand, the ovulation will stop naturally after a few weeks or months. On the other hand, the ovulation will not stop and more ovums will be produced and accumulate. Both cases are not really good for young females because they will stop feeding for a while, and it will impact their growth rate. The second case is the worst but right now you don't have to fear that.

Stopping by lowering the temps avoid a lot of troubles. Last years 2 of my 8 months females stopped growing because of their ovulations, and they are now very little compared to other female geckos. If they won't eat in a week or 2, you should lower the temps.

 

[LEOPARD1]

So stop the ovulation, you can lower the temps for a week around 80 degrees. Most of time it works well.

I don't know where you obtained that information. They are constantly thermoregulating. Say your warm side is 74 DF and cool side is 65DF. You would most likely end up with a severely constipated and most likely still ovulating Leo.

It's your choice if you would want to treat the herp that way.

 

[arawn]

When a female has stop feeding for a long time constipation is not a problem. After 2 weeks the bowels are empty. Where? With most European breeder, such as coollizard for example. When I had the case for the first time I asked various renown breeder. When the regular day temperature lowers, the body reacts as if the cool season is approaching, in the same way that we cool lower the temps to prepare them for hibernation. Most of the time it stops the production of ovums. It's better than having female stop feeding and losing weight for months until they reach a critical point when you can't breed them. I did 5 times (3 times last year after the 2 first cases, 2 times this year), in the following way. All females are in good shape now.

Basically after 2 weeks without feeding, the bowels are empty, so lowering the temps every 3 days until the temperature reach 80 is simply using a natural mechanism. However in this case we trick the body to stop the ovulation. When you breed a lot of geckos, and of course when you've got a lot a females, bad ovulations are not uncommon. Going to the vet will result in an injection to force the gecko to lay her eggs, and vets don't like that since adjusting the correct amount to inject is not easy and could result to the death of the animal, or in the case of geckos who keep accumulating ovarian follicles, the vet will most likely open the gecko are remove them. My vets favors the simulation of the cold period, since it will do less harm to the geckos.

 

[LEOPARD1]

When a female has stop feeding for a long time constipation is not a problem. After 2 weeks the bowels are empty. Where? With most European breeder, such as coollizard for example. When I had the case for the first time I asked various renown breeder. When the regular day temperature lowers, the body reacts as if the cool season is approaching, in the same way that we cool lower the temps to prepare them for hibernation. Most of the time it stops the production of ovums. It's better than having female stop feeding and losing weight for months until they reach a critical point when you can't breed them. I did 5 times (3 times last year after the 2 first cases, 2 times this year), in the following way. All females are in good shape now.

Basically after 2 weeks without feeding, the bowels are empty, so lowering the temps every 3 days until the temperature reach 80 is simply using a natural mechanism. However in this case we trick the body to stop the ovulation. When you breed a lot of geckos, and of course when you've got a lot a females, bad ovulations are not uncommon. Going to the vet will result in an injection to force the gecko to lay her eggs, and vets don't like that since adjusting the correct amount to inject is not easy and could result to the death of the animal, or in the case of geckos who keep accumulating ovarian follicles, the vet will most likely open the gecko are remove them. My vets favors the simulation of the cold period, since it will do less harm to the geckos.

I was talking to my Sheik and misinterpreted what you wrote (really I glanced over it) I tend to blame my ADD but I also have slept 5 hours in the past 72. I don't make things too complex and you put it in a very simple manner. I do agree with you. I have had a female who has always been a picky feeder. At 8 months she began ovulating. She would not eat for 3 weeks. Alhamdulillah her growth in terms of length was not affected but she did drop weight not much being shy of one month without food.

I was advised by the local herpetologist at our zoo which in now #1 in the US to lower temps but it was too late she started eating on day 22. So I have fortunately never had a Leo go more than 3 weeks without food during ovulation. If the problem arises that the ovulation is becoming so long that it is concerning. I will do what you suggested and if need be take proper measure to make sure it is not another complication.

Thanks,

 

[arawn]

No worries. We are here to exchange experiences. Moreover, it made me explain why lower the temps was effective and how to do it without harming the gecko.

Don't worry I understand for the ADD, my little brother is concerned to by this disorder too.

 

[Tongue Flicker]

3 weeks off feed is still short. I had one female who skipped a month and 13 days without eating during her ovulation period. She's good and back to feeding now. Ugh ovulations (for non-breeders, yet) is always a pain -__-

 

[amsdadtodd]

Thank you all. Hopefully this situation has resolved itself already. Last night I fed them each two small hornworms and they both began looking for more food. I began dropping in crickets one at a time and they both gobbled them up quickly, until Berry had 4 and Hopper ate 3. I'm going to hold off on feeding for a few days and then try just a couple of crickets or roaches each.

Todd

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

/\ great news, Todd. :cheer:

 

[amsdadtodd]

I'm waking this thread up again because Hopper is still causing me some worries. Although she's eating acceptable amounts of mealworms, that's all she'll touch consistently. Her weight is a bit of a concern, she's at 36 grams at around 5 inches. I weigh her in a large glass beaker, so I was able to get a good look at her underside and did see a white oval shape, so that was a good call by many of you who responded.

My biggest concern now is her feces. While they still have normal colored white urates and brown feces, there is also always a pool of clear to lightly tinted liquid. Is this something that comes with ovulation, or a sign of something else? I have looked at them under the microscope and don't see anything up to 200x, but I don't have many stains on hand to highlight anything. We have a shortage of herp vets around here, but it's about an hour and a half to Boston to get her in to Tufts if need be.

Any suggestions?
Thank you,
Todd

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

My biggest concern now is her feces. While they still have normal colored white urates and brown feces, there is also always a pool of clear to lightly tinted liquid. Is this something that comes with ovulation, or a sign of something else?

female leo Hopper
Leo "output" consists of 3 parts:

• feces ~ size of 2 tic tacs
• urates - white and about the size of 1 tic tac
• urine - puddle

Is it possible that you are noticing the urine just now?

 

[amsdadtodd]

female leo Hopper
Leo "output" consists of 3 parts:

• feces ~ size of 2 tic tacs
• urates - white and about the size of 1 tic tac
• urine - puddle

Is it possible that you are noticing the urine just now?

I guess anything is possible, but since I have one other female and two males, my observations are based on comparisons against their conditions, as well as what I've observed over time with her. I like the "tic-tac" unit of measure, and her solids are definitely consistent with that description!

Anyway, if what Hopper is doing now is normal, then is what Berry, Puff, and Poppy are doing too dry? Or, is there a wide range of normal when it comes to urine output in leopard gecko's?

I did just show a picture of Hopper to the owner of the store where I buy my feeders, and where I bought my boa constrictors and my two male leo's. He said she looks healthy and suggested perhaps too much vitamin A in her diet based on interpreting my description as diarrhea. I find him rather knowledgeable, but not flawless.

Thank you!
Todd

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

......there is also always a pool of clear to lightly tinted liquid......

I did just show a picture of Hopper to the owner of the store where I buy my feeders, and where I bought my boa constrictors and my two male leo's. He said she looks healthy and suggested perhaps too much vitamin A in her diet based on interpreting my description as diarrhea. I find him rather knowledgeable, but not flawless.

I don't know how wide the range is for leo's urine output. Are you sure Berry, Puff, & Poppy aren't urinating much? How are their sheds? I would not worry unless their sheds are difficult.

I have never heard that too much dietary vitamin A causes unusual urine or diarrhea. Too much fiber would cause mushy feces and potentially diarrhea. Seems like diarrhea would have more "substance" and not be clear or lightly tinged.