Help with Weight of my Leo please?

[CWilson13]

So, update on how the Phoenix Worms have worked out...
Apollo LOVES them. A little too much in fact. I have to be careful about how many I give him at a time. He ate 10 of the "medium" ones in less than 3 minutes the very first time I put some out for him. Now I do 5 at a time and watch to see if he goes in his warm dry hide after eating. I figure that is a good way to tell if he is full or not.

 

[amsdadtodd]

That's great news, I'm glad to hear the phoenix worms worked out for you! The downside is that they will be difficult to ship in a couple of months, and I don't know of any retail outlets for them! I do know that New England Herpetoculture in Meriden, CT will accommodate people who want to pick up their orders from their facility, but from the Boston area, that's about a 90 minute drive!

Todd

 

[CWilson13]

Yeah I thought about the winter coming up, that is why I have been shopping around for quality Dubias. So far it looks like more mail order, at least so I can start my own small colony. I just hope this winter isn't as harsh or long as last year.
A 90 minute drive in decent weather wouldn't be horrible really. He is worth the drive.

 

[amsdadtodd]

I'm not sure if we're supposed to post links, but I'll try. Here is NEHerps URL
New England Herpetoculture LLC - Home Page
I've used them for mail order in the past and did drive down once to pick up a plant order, but they aren't like a retail shop where you can just walk in a browse around, although if they aren't busy, they will give you a quick tour.

I hear Dubia's are easy to keep, I never tried them myself, but my Turkestan colony has been thriving with very little effort!

I'm not holding out much hope for the winter here, I really had hoped to be in South Carolina by now, but things just aren't coming together fast enough, and I just have a bad feeling about this winter!

Todd

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Phoenix worms = black soldier fly larvae. Black soldier fly larvae are also sold under the names calciworms and reptiworms. My PetCo sells these.

Todd ~ Have you heard of any differences with those 3?

 

[amsdadtodd]

Phoenix worms = black soldier fly larvae. Black soldier fly larvae are also sold under the names calciworms and reptiworms. My PetCo sells these.

Todd ~ Have you heard of any differences with those 3?

I've heard the same thing, and I can't remember right now, but I'm sure there was another cute name floating around for these. I wish my leo's could have liked them, they are probably the best way to get calcium into them!

 

[CWilson13]

Todd: Thanks for the link! I will definitely be checking them out. Yeah, everything I have been hearing points to another long awful winter. Really makes me regret coming to New England ha-ha. Also how do you keep the Turkestans from flying? Yeah I know that is a Noob question, sorry.

Elizabeth: Sadly the Petco near me only carries Meal/Superworms aka VitaBugs, waxworms, and Dubias, which I'd say at best 80% are already dead. I may look elsewhere for those other names though, thanks!

 

[amsdadtodd]

Todd: Thanks for the link! I will definitely be checking them out. Yeah, everything I have been hearing points to another long awful winter. Really makes me regret coming to New England ha-ha. Also how do you keep the Turkestans from flying? Yeah I know that is a Noob question, sorry.

Elizabeth: Sadly the Petco near me only carries Meal/Superworms aka VitaBugs, waxworms, and Dubias, which I'd say at best 80% are already dead. I may look elsewhere for those other names though, thanks!

Even though they have wings, the Turkestans don't fly. The males are rumored to be good jumpers, but I've never observed this. I keep them in a deep rubbermaid container. I cut a lot of the top away and duct taped screen over the whole, so I can still open and close the lid but leave plenty of air flow. I'll post some pictures later when I'm not on the run.

Todd

 

[CWilson13]

That would be great! No rush of course, I still have plenty of Phoenix Worms for now.

 

[CWilson13]

Another question, even though the Phoenix Worms are really high in calcium, should I occasionally dust them with the Calcium + D3 powder I have? I know Apollo does need D3, just not as much as he needs calcium. If I should, what would be a good schedule to do so?

 

[amsdadtodd]

I don't think I would dust the phoenix worms with any more calcium, maybe just once a week or so dust another feeder with the calcium and d3. If you use a multivitamin powder that doesn't have d3, then maybe that would make sense on the phoenix worms.

The photo on my roach setup is going to have to wait until morning now, it's past light's out, but I'll get it to you.

Todd

 

[CWilson13]

No rush on the Roach picture So, no dusting Phoenix Worms at all. Suppose I could dust the remaining Supers, I just don't want him to miss out on anything he needs.
In other Phoenix worm news; Apollo actually lost weight when I made the switch from Supers to Phoenix. His tail still looks a little plump, but I don't think they have enough fat to keep his weight up. I may not use them as a primary staple after all. Even though I won't be breeding him, I still figure keeping him around 55-65g is best. With his length (8in) I am estimating him to be at the youngest, a sub adult. Am I wrong in such an estimation? 8in and 46-50g seems skinny to me :\

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Actually that does help a lot! I am waiting for the Phoenix worms to arrive sometime next week so I can try those. Only having him for a week means he is getting a large variety of food so far. He is not a big fan of crickets, he went crazy for mealworms and superworms though. I dust the worms with just calcium every other feeding, and once a week I dust with calcium and D3. Can you recommend a good gutload for meal/superworms? So far I have given them a few carrot slices and shredded turnip greens. I really want to make sure I do everything right for him.
If he reacts well to the Phoenix worms I will most likely stick with those.

You hit a winner with turnip greens! Check the calcium and phosphorus levels out here: Show Foods

This USDA Foods List is very reliable.

Have you decided upon some multivitamins and a dry diet?

Make sure Apollo gets some D3 every week. That could come either from his diet or via light dusting of supplements. Vitamin D is fat soluble, so once consumed vitamin D sticks around a while.

Another question, even though the Phoenix Worms are really high in calcium, should I occasionally dust them with the Calcium + D3 powder I have? I know Apollo does need D3, just not as much as he needs calcium. If I should, what would be a good schedule to do so?

Which brand of calcium with D3 do you have? They all contain varying amounts of D3.

No rush on the Roach picture So, no dusting Phoenix Worms at all. Suppose I could dust the remaining Supers, I just don't want him to miss out on anything he needs.
In other Phoenix worm news; Apollo actually lost weight when I made the switch from Supers to Phoenix. His tail still looks a little plump, but I don't think they have enough fat to keep his weight up. I may not use them as a primary staple after all. Even though I won't be breeding him, I still figure keeping him around 55-65g is best. With his length (8in) I am estimating him to be at the youngest, a sub adult. Am I wrong in such an estimation? 8in and 46-50g seems skinny to me :\

Maybe Apollo is still growing? Leos keep growing till they are about 18 months old.

55-65 grams for an 8 inch male sounds good. My adult female is 63 grams @ 9 inches.

PS: What about feeding more Phoenix worms at each feeding so Apollo maintains his weight?

 

[CWilson13]

Not sure what you mean by dry diet, unless you meant for gut loading his insects, for that I use Zoo Med Adult formula Bearded Dragon food. I saw multiple sources that said turnip greens were great to help gut load. Those and carrots for moisture.
As far as a multi-vitamin, well I have not picked one because I honestly didn't know he needed one Could you recommend one?
The D3 powder is Phosphorus free Rep-Cal. Not sure how much D3 he gets from the Phoenix Worms or Supers. Before starting him on the Phoenix, I would dust the Meals/Supers with plain Calcium every other feeding. Calcium + D3 was once a week. Since the Phoenix though, only 2 feedings before today, I have not dusted at all.
I'm not sure of his age unfortunately, that was part of why I started this thread, but if he gets bigger that might be good would be pretty cool if he somehow turned out to be a Giant-Albino. I am glad I guessed an appropriate weight goal for him though. Shows that I am on the right path to getting him to his best possible health.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Not sure what you mean by dry diet, unless you meant for gut loading his insects, for that I use Zoo Med Adult formula Bearded Dragon food. I saw multiple sources that said turnip greens were great to help gut load. Those and carrots for moisture.
As far as a multi-vitamin, well I have not picked one because I honestly didn't know he needed one Could you recommend one?
The D3 powder is Phosphorus free Rep-Cal. Not sure how much D3 he gets from the Phoenix Worms or Supers. Before starting him on the Phoenix, I would dust the Meals/Supers with plain Calcium every other feeding. Calcium + D3 was once a week. Since the Phoenix though, only 2 feedings before today, I have not dusted at all.
I'm not sure of his age unfortunately, that was part of why I started this thread, but if he gets bigger that might be good would be pretty cool if he somehow turned out to be a Giant-Albino. I am glad I guessed an appropriate weight goal for him though. Shows that I am on the right path to getting him to his best possible health.

There's no question about this. You are doing what's best for Apollo!

Did you see my PS on post #33 about feeding Apollo more Phoenix worms to maintain his weight?

Are you feeding this adult beardie food 24/7? I think that's best. That's what I mean by a "dry" diet. Some people use the term "gutloading" for the food they feed daily; other's use "gutloading" for an especially high calcium diet they feed the insects and worms 24-48 hours prior to feeding them off to a gecko.

Rep-Cal's calcium with D3 contains more D3 than any similar product on the market. For a comparison, check out post #24 after my basic Leo Guidelines. If you're using the beardie food 24/7 (also contains D3), I'd cut back Rep-Cal's D3 to 2x per month.

It's also important to use a multivitamin about 2x per month...just lightly dusted. I like and use Zoo Med's plain (no D3) Reptivite multivitamins. The better the diet you feed the insects and the worms, the less multivitamin geckos need. Actually getting most of their nutrition directly from the diet is best.

When you run out of Rep-Cal's D3, I suggest Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3. That has far less D3.

 

[CWilson13]

Well, so far I have been giving him 10 Phoenix Worms per feeding. I will try bumping it up to 15, see how he does with that. Once i find some suitable Dubias i will use them for the necessary dusting feedings. The jaws on the Supers worry me. I know many people say there is no risk of bites, but just to be safe I would rather not risk it.
Yes, the beardie food is constantly with the Supers. The day before I would feed them to Apollo I added the turnip greens (need more of those) and a couple slices of carrot. The jar of Rep-Cal is huge, considering how little it takes to dust. So I may just get the Zoo-Med along with their multi-vitamin one.
Very good to know I am doing right by Apollo. He has already had a rough life so I want him to live in luxury and happiness now.

 

[amsdadtodd]

Here are the pic's of the roach colony I keep. I'm sure I could do many things to make it more efficient, but I don't need to, this colony already supports my gecko's needs quite well, and then some. I keep it in my herp room, on a middle shelf which runs near 82 degrees f ambient. The petri dish is full of flukers water crystals, and I put the bearded dragon food on the bottom of the container.

Todd

 

[CWilson13]

You hit a winner with turnip greens! Check the calcium and phosphorus levels out here: Show Foods

This USDA Foods List is very reliable [/B]

That list just came in SUPER handy. Local grocery store didn't have turnip greens, had to get a mix of collard, mustard, and turnip greens. Thanks to that list I know all 3 offer very close to a 2:1 Calcium to Phosphorus ratio. Thanks again!!!

 

[CWilson13]

Looks like a pretty easy set up Todd. Would that work for Dubias? The wife can handle them, but according to her the Turkestans look too much like "regular" roaches lol How do you go about cleaning it? I can't recall who, but somebody posted a Dubia set up where they had 2 same size tubs stacked together, the interior one had small holes in the bottom to allow waste to fall through. I thought that sounded like a very efficient way to keep cleanliness up.

 

[amsdadtodd]

I agree, the turkestan roaches do look skeevy! I'm told that dubia roaches have identical needs to these, but I've never tried them. I clean this setup about once a month, I have two identical containers and just chase the entire colony from the dirty one into the clean one.
I've seen the set-up you described posted and imagine that it would work well, but I haven't tried it myself.

Todd