Serious impaction from sand!

[Stellarreality]

I recently got 2 leopards, one sub-adult and one adult; male and female respectively. Well upon purchasing them I used cracked walnut shell as the substrate...I knew it wasn't the best but I felt like they had a less chance of eating that than sand. NOPE they immediately started taking little licks.

So I posted a thread asking if plywood could be a temp floor, well I went ahead and bought tile for the floors instead, and used sand to fill the cracks.

Both of them still had good appetites when I put the new floors in, I was hoping everything would be fine.

I watched their poop over the course of a few days, and noticed them pass all the walnut and then they started having solid poops.

Now this is where it all starts going down hill, today I woke up and my sub adult was dead. There were 2 large poops in their bathroom corner, both almost completely sand/superworm carapace. One had blood on the end of it, now I'm not sure if the bloody one was from the dead sub-adult or my still living adult...and I think it was from the one that's still alive.

Now before anyone says "impaction/sand eating might just be a symptom" I went ahead and autopsied the sub-adult...

To my dismay his stomach was completely filled with sand...I mean it literally looked as if he ate sand until he couldn't anymore...

This gecko was completely healthy, I had just got him from the store not even a week before. I know not all pet stores care for their animals, but I know first hand this one does.

Now I have the momma on paper towel, but I gave her a little tummy rub and I noticed there is a hard lump in the lower abdomen, and like I said I think the bloody stool was from her.

I'm just so confused, why would they actively eat sand...I'm feeding the sub-adult daily and offering the adult daily, and let them eat until they are content. I watch them drink water...I dust their roaches, crickets, and superworms with multi-vit...

Now I'm pretty sure the big one is going to die and there isn't shit I can do about it besides soft massages, warm soak, and paper towel substrate...

This pisses me off, I never even saw them eating sand; I saw the adult lick it once and that was it she seemed uninterested. It's just so aggravating after I spent all the damn money on them and they go and kill themselves before I can even put a stop to it. I'm just hoping I can intervene on the momma in time.

I could understand the momma eating sand being so used to repti-carpet, but I feel like the sub-adult should have transitions easily.

:-x:-x:-x

 

[amsdadtodd]

I'm sorry for the loss of your pet, hopefully you won't also lose the other one.
I was one of a few who warned you against the plywood, and was glad to read that opted for tile.
Gecko's will lick anything and everything in their enclosure. I'm not sure if anyone has ever figured out why, I believe it's one of the ways they learn and monitor their environment. Of course, when they lick sand, they will ingest some of it.

In cases of severe impaction, you have to take your pet to the veterinarian. This is an emergency situation that you may make worse by trying to help. I can't stress this enough!

Hoping for the best!
Todd

 

[the funky gecko]

Glad you used paper towels and tile, both are very good substrates. Can you post a picture of the living one's belly, sides, face, and whole body? The best thing to-do is to take it to a exotic vet nearby as soon as possible.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I recently got 2 leopards, one sub-adult and one adult; male and female respectively. Well upon purchasing them I used cracked walnut shell as the substrate...I knew it wasn't the best

......

Now before anyone says "impaction/sand eating might just be a symptom" I went ahead and autopsied the sub-adult...

To my dismay his stomach was completely filled with sand...I mean it literally looked as if he ate sand until he couldn't anymore...

This gecko was completely healthy, I had just got him from the store not even a week before. I know not all pet stores care for their animals, but I know first hand this one does.

Now I have the momma on paper towel, but I gave her a little tummy rub and I noticed there is a hard lump in the lower abdomen, and like I said I think the bloody stool was from her.

I'm just so confused, why would they actively eat sand...I'm feeding the sub-adult daily and offering the adult daily, and let them eat until they are content. I watch them drink water...I dust their roaches, crickets, and superworms with multi-vit...

Now I'm pretty sure the big one is going to die and there isn't shit I can do about it besides soft massages, warm soak, and paper towel substrate...

This pisses me off, I never even saw them eating sand; I saw the adult lick it once and that was it she seemed uninterested. It's just so aggravating after I spent all the damn money on them and they go and kill themselves before I can even put a stop to it. I'm just hoping I can intervene on the momma in time.

I could understand the momma eating sand being so used to repti-carpet, but I feel like the sub-adult should have transitions easily.

:-x:-x:-x

I am very sorry your sub-adult leo just passed away from sand impaction.

Can you bring the adult to an herp/exotics vet right away? Maybe there's some way to "break up" the impaction to make it passable? Cat lax (or a couple drops of olive oil, vegetable oil, or mineral oil) and warm soaks may help your leo pass the impaction, but if it is too large she could die upon passing it. Gently massage the area too. Don't feed this leo anything chitinous until the impaction has passed. That includes insects and worms.

The warm soaks should be about 86*F. That's a leo's preferred body temperature.

• What substrate had they been kept on in the store?
• Just wondering if you sprayed the enclosure at all?
• What are the warm end and cool end ground temperatures under the dry hides as measured by a digital thermometer with a probe?
• What multivitamin do you use? How often?

It will really help me (and other leos) if you could share a picture of the tank with the tiles and the sand between the cracks. That way I'll know exactly how much sand was accessible. I only recommend a very thin layer of sand beneath the tiles to level them out. That prevents heat irregularities between an under tank heat mat and the tops of the tile.

Please keep us posted.

 

[Stellarreality]

They were kept on repticarp.

My ambient are temp hovers around 81-85, my hot side is 90+ and my cold hide is ~75.

Spray the enclosure with what? Water? No, they drink out of their water bowl, I do mist the damp hide every few days.

I use herptivite. I'd say I probably dust the food every 3 feedings or so; my gutload mix has multivit in it also so.

As far as the tiles go, I filled the racks with sand, and there was probably some loose sand on top of the tile. I mean it is visible in the cracks because it fills them, but there isn't a lot on top of the tile, I dusted it all into the hide. Her damp/cold hide actually sits on a coco/sand mix and she doesn't eat that, there is no coco in her stool.

I'd take pics if I could but I can't.

 

[Stellarreality]

Let's put it this way, there was enough sand still accessible for her to actively eat it; but not be the main substrate, imagine I used it to fill 1/16" gaps in the tile with it.

I guess it's really my stupid mistake expecting a gecko to transition so easily.

 

[Stellarreality]

I can't believe I forgot to say this, when I was taking the big momma out to check her tummy in the brief walk from me taking her out and bringing her to my bed she wriggled free and fell probably 4 ft to the ground =/.

She smacked pretty hard and her tail was going crazy, well after much research I learned they can detach internally but not externally, causing the tail to rigor and evenually rot. If not disconnected it can cause the gecko health concerns.

So I was checking her tail and normally it's very responsive, extremely supple, and very fleshy feeling(as in if you slightly squeeze it's soft like relaxed muscle.).

Well after the fall the tail was no longer that, the tip was so hard and it had no response, at first I thought it was just the tip, but as I lightly squeezed further up the tail I could feel it was so stiff. Like a body with rigor...

So I just gave it a little squeeze more near the base, and I could feel her wanting to drop it but not being able to...like she would pull her butt in but the tail wouldn't loose...so I figured she needed my help. So I just held the tail and surely enough the next little tug she did the tail popped off.

I hate that I had to do it, but I had to...it would have really sucked if it was just a coincidence and she was keeping the tail stiff.

Once I had the tail off I knew 100% that it was already disconnected internally and dead...the tail did not move whatsoever when it was disconnected, and it seemed like blood had pooled internally.

It seems like all the worst luck hits me at once...I just hope she's okay...I don't have the money to take her to the vet; but I'm going to call petco and tell them what happened and I think the employees will understand and let me bring her in to go to the vet even though it wasn't their fault.

I mean if I wanted to be frank to them, I could blame them simply for telling me sand is suitable substrate. Although it's childish, if it comes down to it I will do it. I'm already down one gecko, and I'll be damned if I let momma go out without a fight.

She's in my lap laying on a warm damp paper towel....please gecko gods, save her.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Her damp/cold hide actually sits on a coco/sand mix and she doesn't eat that, there is no coco in her stool.

Please move her moist hide to the warm end. That's where it should be. The warmth generates the necessary humidity to help with hydration and with shedding.

......

It seems like all the worst luck hits me at once...I just hope she's okay...I don't have the money to take her to the vet; but I'm going to call petco and tell them what happened and I think the employees will understand and let me bring her in to go to the vet even though it wasn't their fault.

I mean if I wanted to be frank to them, I could blame them simply for telling me sand is suitable substrate. Although it's childish, if it comes down to it I will do it. I'm already down one gecko, and I'll be damned if I let momma go out without a fight.

She's in my lap laying on a warm damp paper towel....please gecko gods, save her.

You and your leo are under extreme stress. Did you notice my cautions about feeding any insects or worms until the impaction passes and the other things I recommended?

Have you some vegetable oil in the house?

• Try a couple drops of vegetable oil on her nose.
• Keep her hydration up!
• Soak 1-2x per day in 86 F water for about 20 minutes.
• Gently massage from throat to vent especially during her soaks.
• After a couple days (check in first), I'd offer her some Gerber's turkey baby food. Just dab some on her nose.

Because your lap is probably much cooler than the warm end of her vivarium, I'd return her to her cage. The warmth she needs right now to recover is 88-92*F ground temperature. Air temperatures no greater than 85*F about 4 inches above ground might help keep the vivarium comfortable as well. For about $10 you can buy a yellow Zoo Med digital thermometer with a probe to help you maintain good temperatures at this especially crucial time.

Does she have an under tank heat mat?

Some keepers spray their leo's cages, not just the warm moist hide. That's why I asked. Then sand might "stick" to crickets or worms while they move around before the gecko eats them.

My fingers are crossed for both of you. I hope all this works out.

 

[Stellarreality]

Ahh I thought the moist hide was the cool side damn, thank you. I saw the caution about feeding insects, do you think those soft waxworms would be okay?

Here is an update, I went to the store and when I got back momma left a present in her latrine corner, and thankfully there was no blood on the stool, but it's still mostly sand. I'm guessing my sub adult had some sort of rupture from the sand and that's why there was blood on his stool, and I suppose at that point there wasn't much I could have done anyways.

Yes she has an undertank heater, I only used a night black bulb w/ low wats to help keep the ambient temp up.

When she was on my lap she was actually soaking, she didn't stay on my lap but the duration of me typing that post.

I just feel so damn bad for her...she lost her cagemate and is probably in pain =/. I know it seems weird but when I look in her eyes it's like there is a longing in there for her buddy =[...

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Ahh I thought the moist hide was the cool side damn, thank you. I saw the caution about feeding insects, do you think those soft waxworms would be okay?

Here is an update, I went to the store and when I got back momma left a present in her latrine corner, and thankfully there was no blood on the stool, but it's still mostly sand. I'm guessing my sub adult had some sort of rupture from the sand and that's why there was blood on his stool, and I suppose at that point there wasn't much I could have done anyways.

Yes she has an undertank heater, I only used a night black bulb w/ low wats to help keep the ambient temp up.

When she was on my lap she was actually soaking, she didn't stay on my lap but the duration of me typing that post.

I just feel so damn bad for her...she lost her cagemate and is probably in pain =/. I know it seems weird but when I look in her eyes it's like there is a longing in there for her buddy =[...

:yahoo: on her gift. I'm hoping that she'll pass the sand little by little. I would tile the entire enclosure and not leave any sand/coco fiber mix underneath the cool hide. Be sure to dry off her tail wound after soaks. Do all you can to prevent infection.

You are quite welcome. Thanks for clarifying. There are lots of details when caring for leopard geckos. They are solitary creatures and really don't need leo friends.

I would not feed waxworms at all. They can be addicting and then your leo will refuse to eat nutritious bugs. Just feed Gerber's turkey or chicken baby food till her poops are clear of any sand.

Consider switching to a low wattage ceramic heat emitter in addition to your UTH. Those emit heat but no light.

 

[Tokaybyt]

I'm just so confused, why would they actively eat sand...I'm feeding the sub-adult daily and offering the adult daily, and let them eat until they are content. I watch them drink water...I dust their roaches, crickets, and superworms with multi-vit...

In my experience/opinion, animals, in-general, that consume atypical diet items (in this case a substrate) usually do so due to being deficient in vitamins/minerals. In your case, this may not be a reflection of your care, but care received prior to you.

An example where this is beneficial is with macaws. Macaws, and other parrots, have been documented feeding on the sides of river banks, seeking out a particular layer consisting of clay. The assumption here is that they are obtaining something from within the clay/substrate that aids in detoxing alkaloids ingested from various fruit seeds they've eaten.

In your case, even the limited access to sand could have contained something in it that the geckos potentially found "beneficial" to their needs to the point of consuming enough for impaction. Unfortunately, knowing what that is/was is difficult and most likely would only be able to be obtained through doing a blood work panel pre- and post-sand consumption -- similar to what was done within a controlled study of alkaloids and clay in the parrots I mentioned above.

Just some food for thought from someone that's kept leos since Oct 1996 and has kept them, albeit only adults, on sand since 1997 and with no issues of impaction. I'm not saying sand is wrong, but I'm not saying it's right either.

Sorry for your loss and I hope the other gecko pulls through.

 

[Keeboard]

oh... sorry about your gecko. i use tile as well, but i heard that somebody's gecko still managed to get the sand from the cracks in its mouth, so thats why i use eco earth in the cracks instead. works great as long as you keep it dry

 

[amsdadtodd]

It sounds like you may on the right track to save your remaining pet! I know it's natural to think that she feels lonely from losing her cagemate, but these really are solitary animals, and it's less stressful on them to be alone than it is to share a tank. While females of the same size can often be kept together, the best case scenario is to keep them separate.
Hopefully, following the advice [MENTION=3989]Elizabeth Freer[/MENTION] gave, you will be able to clear the impaction and get her on track to re-growing her tail.
Good luck!
Todd

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

How has your older leo been doing?