Swisswiss's terrarium

[swisswiss]

Hey again, that is a common (and understandable) miss-conception most owners have regarding the behavior of Geckos living communally, if one Gecko is lying on the other whenever it is sleeping this is a common sign of dominance, bullying / dominance is almost always present on some level in these situations but as-long as it doesn't become physical at any point they should be fine health wise (physically anyway).

The wounds on the second Leo would look a little worrying but I cant say for sure how they happened as I always keep every Leo separately regardless of gender and have no experience of what tail nips would look like for example, so that's something to keep an eye on.

Also with the second she/he appears to be somewhat dehydrated judging (guessing) from the pictures so the first few times you are gut-loading your crickets (I'm guessing that's what you will be feeding first until you discover why most of us use roaches instead :biggrin try to include something with a very high moisture content, a slice of orange perhaps and always ensure the moist hide is very moist for the first week or so giving her a chance to recover.

noted. ill keep the moist hide regularly wet, for the moment I only have many many mealworms but the dubias should arrive this week.... its impressive the speed at which they eat apples and carrots....

I havent seen any nipping as of yet, then again im not watching them 24/7. this morning before lights off roxanne was just outside the most hide on the usually basking spot in the tile she seems to like and calypso was still in the humid hide...

 

[swisswiss]

Your warm humid hide will be better than submerging her in a bath in these circumstances. The wounds will heal faster if they are kept dry.

Be sure any medication you choose is not petroleum-based. Leos lick everywhere!



Click: Sexing Leopard Geckos

:scratchhead:

• What if Calypso actually is male? :biggrin:
• If Roxanne (a few months younger) is also male, that will be a problem. Then you'll definitely need separate vivs.
• If they are a pair, then they should not be "introduced" till they are about 2 years old (18 months) at the earliest. Mating earlier than that will be hard on the female.

How are they keeping the leos at the rescue? It's important for leos to be quarantined for about 90 days before introducing them.

I didnt get to see how they kept the Leo enclosures and its kinda hard to judge since roxanne is in really good health while Calypso is a little beat up.... ill phone in today and ask a few questions, if you guys have anything in mind you think i should ask please, by all means let me know...

I would rather avoid applying medication if I can, I realize the more I handle him/her the more stressing it is. ill keep the humid hide humid daily...

so assuming it is a male ill have to separate them regardless then? seeing as roxanne is to young?
seems the wisest thing to do would be to take him/her back.... but seeing how I got her im sure i can provide a better home...

could you tell me more about quarantine Liz? im assuming since, since they guy said they had been "prepared" for me that they were already in the same box waiting for my pick up.... then when i brought them home I just let them roam my terrarium right away....

 

[Zux]

I didnt get to see how they kept the Leo enclosures and its kinda hard to judge since roxanne is in really good health while Calypso is a little beat up.... ill phone in today and ask a few questions, if you guys have anything in mind you think i should ask please, by all means let me know...

I would rather avoid applying medication if I can, I realize the more I handle him/her the more stressing it is. ill keep the humid hide humid daily...

so assuming it is a male ill have to separate them regardless then? seeing as roxanne is to young?
seems the wisest thing to do would be to take him/her back.... but seeing how I got her im sure i can provide a better home...

could you tell me more about quarantine Liz? im assuming since, since they guy said they had been "prepared" for me that they were already in the same box waiting for my pick up.... then when i brought them home I just let them roam my terrarium right away....

I would try asking how the wounds on the tail happened, they are unlikely to be able to tell you, but its worth a shot.

If the Geckos do prove to be opposite sexes separation would be the wisest course of action. Generally speaking the only time it is said to be acceptable to keep Leo's together would be in the case of multiple females and even in those cases a large terrarium with multiple hides for each is required.

As a blanket rule I personally would advise against keeping any Leo's together outside of for breeding purposes as they don't get anything out of having the company and at best it only stresses them out to share small territories. I feel it is a mistake for us to humanize their rationale as they are simply incapable of behaving for the same reasons we would.

I totally understand its likely to be very disappointing if things work out this way but I can also tell you have the correct outlook on it and want them to be happy and healthy so I'm sure they are in good hands.

 

[swisswiss]

thx shane...im alraedy looking to see if i can fit another terrarium (smaller of course) in my budget though i spent already a lot for this one....

 

[JessJohnson87]

Until you can get another one, you can use a plastic storage tote.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I didnt get to see how they kept the Leo enclosures and its kinda hard to judge since roxanne is in really good health while Calypso is a little beat up.... ill phone in today and ask a few questions, if you guys have anything in mind you think i should ask please, by all means let me know...

I would rather avoid applying medication if I can, I realize the more I handle him/her the more stressing it is. ill keep the humid hide humid daily...

so assuming it is a male ill have to separate them regardless then? seeing as roxanne is to young?
seems the wisest thing to do would be to take him/her back.... but seeing how I got her im sure i can provide a better home...

could you tell me more about quarantine Liz? im assuming since, since they guy said they had been "prepared" for me that they were already in the same box waiting for my pick up.... then when i brought them home I just let them roam my terrarium right away....

See the vertical line separating Calypso's hemipenal bulges? I see it better on your pics than in the link. At 7.8 inches long Calypso's sex would normally be evident.

You've created an exceptionally lovely viv! It's really beautiful. I'd just concentrate on one leo.

Generally, leos can live into their mid 20s. I know of one female that's 32 years old and still hanging in there!

Even when both leos are female and similarly sized, there is no guarantee that they will be lifelong buddies. At some point one of two females could have a really bad day. It's not unheard of. Then the other would be the loser. More space helps, but is also not a guarantee.

thx shane...im alraedy looking to see if i can fit another terrarium (smaller of course) in my budget though i spent already a lot for this one....

I wonder about the protocol at the rescue.

• Maybe Calypso had just arrived at the rescue already injured.
• Maybe they quarantine the leos there.
• Maybe they keep adoption histories on the geckos.

During quarantine a gecko would be kept individually for 90 days (some people say 60 days) to check for any health issues prior to introducing the gecko to any cagemates.

 

[swisswiss]

so i got off the phone with vivarium... he was unable to tell me the age as it seems they were both given to him by an individual and it seems they were in a community tank with at least 6 other geckos.... Guess traceability isnt a strong point when it comes to adopting free leo geckos.... he said he gave me the ones that showed least sign of aggression but that Calypos wounds are most likely due to aggression from the community tank.....

he said the guy that brought him the geckos (roxanne and mine were together apparently) said they were all females...probably in an attempt to easy the transfer since males are more aggressive? but that he (the vivarium guy) later noticed that among the "females" there was a male...so it could be indeed that calypso is a male too....

didnt ask about QT practices....

I weighed and measured them today and these are the results...

Calypso

weight 42 Gr. (after eating)
at roughly 20 cm

Roxanne

weight 23 Gr. (last meal 24h ago)
at roughly 18cm

Calypso only ate a couple of meal worms yesterday...but stuffed his/her face today eating at least 4 or 5....

dubias arrive tomorrow so any advice on; if I should attempt to feed or not would be welcome....

it may be wishful thinking (in fact it most certainly is) but Calypso seems a little better already to me, her over all body shape seems less flimsy and colors a little brighter? mind you it could be because she is full...

tail wounds still look pretty ugly...

would a 60cm by 45 by 30 (24X18X12) be comfortably big enough for Calypso, and can she/he stay in her current setup for at least 4 weeks (unless i see aggression of course then ill have to split them up...) till i can scrap some funds together?....

....."and so the terrarium invasion of twenty 16 began...."

P.s...excuse the beer photobomb and also i meant to ask seeing as she has a rather fat soggy neck isnt that also a potential male trait?

I sent the gecko guy at the vivarium the same pics i showed you trying to sex Calypso but he hasnt replied yet....

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

A 24 x 18 x 12 inch viv can work for one leo. Try getting the thermal gradient diagonally.

I'd get the 2nd viv very soon, not a month from now. A temporary solution would be a plastic storage bin like Jess suggested.

• C is about 2x the size of R.
• C can stress R out seeing as he's much bigger.
• He'll be better off in a "hospital enclosure" till his wounds heal.
• Even without his thickish neck, I think he's "showing".

Here's a temperature guide for all leopard geckos as measured by the probe of a digital thermometer

• 88-92 F (31.1-33.3 C) ground temperature right underneath a leo's warm dry hide
• no greater than 82ish F (27.8ish C) air temperature - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
• no greater than 75 F (23.9 C) air temperature - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Calypso only ate a couple of meal worms yesterday...but stuffed his/her face today eating at least 4 or 5....

dubias arrive tomorrow so any advice on; if I should attempt to feed or not would be welcome....

I'd not feed them tomorrow when the dubias arrive. Wait till Friday.

If a gecko eats too much, he/she can regurgitate the food.

What are you planning to feed the dubia long term?

PS:
C can also stress R out seeing as he's much bigger. That's another reason why I would not wait a month.

 

[swisswiss]

carrots, zuchini, apples, whatever faded greens i have but not spinach apparently? maybe some dried dog food....oranges

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

carrots, zuchini, apples, whatever faded greens i have but not spinach apparently? maybe some dried dog food....oranges

Nope, no dog or cat food at all. Some dog foods, cat foods, contain taurine. Besides they usually contain too much protein.

Roaches and mealworms (most feeders) need a basic dry diet that's offered 24/7. That can be Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food or a high quality dry diet made exclusively for crickets, et cetera.

Then add high calcium, low phosphorus veggies like collard greens, turnip greens, mustard greens, pesticide-free dandelion flowers and greens in a lid for moisture and additional nutrition.

Keep the dry diet DRY!

Feeders in general are very high in phosphorus! Phosphorus impairs the absorption of calcium. We wish to achieve a 1.5-2.0 ratio of Ca : 1.0 P. Correcting this imbalance by the actual diet we feed our insects and worms is crucial!!! When we add a light dusting of supplements to the insects/worms, that helps. It's best for the proper nutrition to come from the actual diet the bugs and worms eat. Consider light dusting as a secondary source of vitamins and minerals.


BTW, can you buy hornworms in Switzerland? Those are very nutritious and full of moisture. They'd be ideal for C, and excellent for R. They are expensive in the USA, but a real treat for a leo.

Click: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...eeding-issues-/68585-hornworm-guidelines.html

 

[JessJohnson87]

Can you get bearded dragon pellets by Zoo Med? I feed my roaches that and they love it, also they will devour crested gecko diet(Repashy or Pangea). Calypso looks much better, I would try and give "him" a bath to get some of that skin off and to help cleanse the wounds.

 

[swisswiss]

cant seem to find the bearded dragon pellets by zoo med, least not where i get my usual supplies. they have something called dietcup from exoterra

http://media.petsathome.com/wcsstore/pah-cas01//300/7104472PL.jpg

or bearded dragon mix by lucky reptile

and I havent seen any horn worms here...cool looking things

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

cant seem to find the bearded dragon pellets by zoo med, least not where i get my usual supplies. they have something called dietcup from exoterra

http://media.petsathome.com/wcsstore/pah-cas01//300/7104472PL.jpg

or bearded dragon mix by lucky reptile

and I havent seen any horn worms here...cool looking things

Click: Natural Bearded Dragon Food - Adult Formula

That's the food Jess and I feed our roaches. I also feed it to my crickets 24/7.

Check the ingredients to see if they are comparable. If you cannot find that particular Zoo Med beardie diet, go with a high quality powdered insect diet from someone like Repashy.

When you feed a diet like ZMNBDF-AF 24/7, you will likely be able to reduce the frequency of powdered supplements.

 

[swisswiss]

do mealworms eat this stuff too?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

do mealworms eat this stuff too?

I hope so. That's what I'm planning to feed them. I suggest grinding it. Maybe Jess knows for sure.

Mealworms are much more fatty than crickets according to Mark Finke's feeder chart. I don't know what the mealworms ate in his study.

(I just began my first mealworm culture 3 weeks ago for different geckos. They are on a bed of Alber's All Purpose Poultry Feed right now.)

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

size and age ill have to see on the spot, the idea is to get a two females of the same size to limit aggression, they might have two that live together already i dont know. ideally they would be sub adults/adults. thinking maybe 15cm.

with regards to the supplements I got the exo terra line, I would have liked the zoo med but i didnt see them in the shop..

but yea.. "exoterra multi vitamin" and "exoterra clacium+D3" I dont have a UV light so i shouldn't risk overdosing the D3....if i understood this correctly

Here's the scoop regarding the Exo Terra multivitamin:
#77---Exo Terra Multivitamns
Click: Exo Terra : Multi Vitamin / Multi Vitamin Powder Supplement

Exo Terra multivitamins contain beta carotene instead of preformed vitamin A. Chances are geckos cannot metabolize beta carotene. So Vitamin A deficiency would result. Exo Terra multivitamins also fall short on vitamins and minerals, such as missing vitamin B12.

I recommend switching to Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamins without D3 and Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 (2 separate bottles).

 

[swisswiss]

found a place to buy zoomed product line, not sure when ill get them though....these geckos are going to ruin me financially...and i thought reef tanks were expensive....

......

I think Roxanne is about to molt....im not sure if thats a good thing because she is healthy, or if she is shedding because she is stressed (saltwater shrimp molt when stressed)

had to btoher her to take a pic but leaving her alone otherwise, she stays in the moist hide

 

[JessJohnson87]

Shedding is normal. They do it once or twice a month depending on growth rate.

The most expensive part is getting them at set-up with everything they need, after that they're cheaper to care for than a dog or cat because they don't need vaccines every year, worm medication every 6 months, flea medication monthly etc. They rarely get sick unless something is off husbandry wise or something just happens. Breeding the feeders takes that expense on food down to.

Are you working on another cool tank for Calypso or Roxanne?

PS.Every time I see her name it makes me think of the song Roxanne by The Police :coverlaugh:

 

[swisswiss]

the tank is slightly smaller so i think ill place roxanne in there... you ever play the drinking game with that song?

you need two pints of beer, one for each hand...every time you hear "roxanne" you drink from the left hand and every time you hear "put on the red light" you drink from the right.....good stuff!!!....