Mouth Compactions

[littlemissbigcity]

Hello! I've had my leo, Remy, for about 2.5 years. For the last year or so he has constantly been getting "stuff" compacted in his teeth on both sides of his mouth, and I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on why this may be happening.

It all started when I switched his moist hide material from sphagnum moss to coconut fiber (he has ceramic tiles in the rest of his tank), and I started feeding him ****roaches (he has a hard time seeing, so no crickets). I noticed he had some "stuff" compacted in the side of his mouth and took him to the vet, where they fished it out and put some SSD ointment on it. They told me they were ****roach parts and to change back to only mealworms, so I did. The same thing happened again, so I got rid of the coconut fiber and went back to sphagnum moss.

Unfortunately, it keeps happening. I try to keep a close eye on it, cleaning his mouth out when I notice anything with a curette (a surgical instrument with a little metal loop on the top meant for scraping), and if it bleeds I put SSD ointment on it and give him a round of injectable antibiotics. I work at a small animal vet (cats and dogs) so it's easy to get things to treat him with but I would rather prevent his mouth from hurting at all...

I take him to the veterinary teaching hospital at my university which is one of the best vet programs in the country and they don't know why this is happening. I can't even really tell what it is that is stuck in there, other than little pieces of worms. They told me it could be from not keeping his warm side warm enough, but I actually keep it warmer than is recommended (around 95 F)

All of this to say, has anybody had a similar problem? What was the cause, and how did you prevent it? I feel bad for his little mouth

 

[littlemissbigcity]

Please do not make the mistake of using this forum as an alternative to seeking proper medical treatment for your pet. Geckos Unlimited members have varying experience levels. Not all of the advice that you get here is valid.

When posting questions on Geckos Unlimited please remember that if you fear your leopard gecko is sick, it is best to take him/her to a vet. Hands-on examination is necessary in order to conclusively diagnose problem(s).

The Basic Information highlights areas that tend to contribute most to many gecko problems. The Additional Information is useful as well. Please do your best to fill in as much as you can. High quality pictures are very helpful.

Basic Information
Species of lizard: Leopard Gecko
Gecko's name: Remy
Morph: Albino
Gender: Male
Age: About 4?
Weight:

Enclosure dimensions (length x width x height): 24x12x12
Substrate provided: Tile

What type and brand of thermometer (digital with probe, temperature gun, LCD strip, analog (circle), combo digital thermometer/hygrometer, stainless steel aquarium type, other): Digital with probe + Thermostat on heater
What is the ground temperature right on the substrate under the warm dry hide: 95 F
What is the air temperature on the warm end about 4 inches up from the ground: 92 F
What is the air temperature on the cool end about 4 inches up from the ground: 72 F
What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (Under Tank Heater, heat light, Ceramic Heat Emitter, Flexwatt heat tape, hot rock, other): UTH, Ceramic Heat Emitter

Insects and worms, list type:
Regular diet fed to the insects:
Regular diet fed to the worms:Mealworms, cricket food and vegetables (carrots or celery)

How often do you feed your gecko? Every 2-3 days
Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often? Repti-vite, small amount on worms

If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs:
Compactions in teeth/gums, ~1 year on and off

Additional Information

General
Gecko's total length: ~6"
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it: Full grown, no change
Source (pet store, breeder, previous owner): Previous Owner
Captive bred or wild caught:

Vivarium
Number of hides: 3
Location of hides: Cool, warm/dry, warm/moist
Is there a humidity hide? location? Yes, warm side
Please describe any other furnishings:
List recent changes in the environment, if any: None recently

Lighting
Artificial lighting
Incandescent ("screw-in type bulbs): wattages: None
Fluorescent (tube bulbs): None
Access to ambient daylight from a distant window: Yes, but it's a shaded window

Heating
Ventilation space for your UTH by elevating the tank above the shelf (some UTHs come with sticky feet for the tank corners): Yes
Are you using a thermostat(s)? Yes
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time? Warm dry/moist equally
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much? No

Humidity
Is the humidity measured? No
Humidity range:

Diet
Are the insects and worms formally “gutloaded” 1-2 days prior to feeding off to your gecko? If so with? Cricket food, vegetables
What calcium brand are you using? with D3, without or both? Repti-vite, with D3
Is the calcium in the tank with D3 or without? None in tank
Multivitamins (include brand name)?
Please list any recent additions/changes in the diet:

General Health
Is your gecko’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased? Normal
Is your gecko’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased? Normal, decreased when his mouth clearly hurts
Have you noticed any of the following?
Weight (loss or gain): None since the first incident
Discharge from the eyes or nose: No
Increased breathing rate or effort: No
Change in the droppings: No
Urates
---white or yellowish: White-ish
---size of urates as compared to size of feces: 1/2 size?
Abnormal skin color or shedding: Has a hard time getting shed off toes and pre-anal glands, taken care of by saunas
Parasites on the skin or in the feces: No
Weakness: No
Regurgitation: No

Previous problems and/or illnesses: Recurring problem, didn't eat well when I first got him

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household
List other animals that are kept in the same cage: None
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months): Rats, kept in a different room
Are any of your other pets ill? No

 

[JessJohnson87]

"What is the air temperature on the warm end about 4 inches up from the ground: 92 F"

Are those the air temperatures? If so that is way too high.

Are you using a calcium supplement at all? I noticed it only says reptivite with d3.

Has the vet actually swabbed the mouth to test for a bacterial infection like mouth rot?

 

[littlemissbigcity]

I keep the thermostat prove on the ground at 95 F and it's pretty bulky, so I just assumed that the air right above it would be about 3 degrees cooler. The previous owner didn't have a thermostat and it was over 100 F, so I think he got used to that and he seemed really unhappy when I had it down at 90 F. With it at 95 F, he still spends almost all of his time on the warm side.

I've only been using Repti-vite with D3 but it also has calcium in it. I know that some people recommend doing a regimen of rotating through different vitamins but I use such a small amount that it didn't seem worth it.

The vet didn't do a swab, but the irritation is pretty localized to just his lip and teeth. Also, I give him regular rounds of antibiotics if it seems really irritated to help it heal and so that he can eat without getting infected so if it were an infection that would have cleared it up. The antibiotics I give him is Ceftazidime (of Cefotaxime depending on the distributor), and I give him about a month of really small doses every 72 hours as recommended by my vet. So he gets enough that it would definitely clear up an infection like mouth rot, I would think.

Also, it's not chronic. When I clean his mouth out it'll be clear for a solid month before it comes back again. So I feel like it's gotta be something in his environment or the way he's eating or something.

 

[JessJohnson87]

Even though the vitamins have calcium in them, they still need a separate calcium supplement. Since you have the vitamins with D3, the calcium would need to be plain. Vitamins only need to be used twice a month but the calcium needs to be used more often. I have Repashy Calcium Plus and use it every feeding, it takes the hassle of a supplement schedule.

My air temperatures 4 inches from the floor of the tank hover between 72-75* with just the heat pad and no other supplemental heat. I have my thermostat set at 90. If it were bug guts or anything to that affect, it would clear up when he licks his mouth after eating.

 

[littlemissbigcity]

I have a really small UTH that spans under both warm hides and a 100w ceramic heat emitter, both hooked up to a thermostat that pops them on and off. My vet told me that this sometimes happens when it's not warm enough so I keep it on the warmer side. Like I said, he spends all of his time on the warm side of the tank so it's obviously not too hot for him.

The thing is, this stuff gets really compacted in his mouth, so much so that it makes him bleed sometimes when I pull it out. So whatever's going on, licking it doesn't pull it out, but it's pretty clearly a foreign substance. I'll attach a picture of what it looked like the first time it happened.

This was before I knew what was going on and it's never gotten that bad since, this one may have been more of an abscess situation but now I don't let it stay long enough to get infected.

 

[JessJohnson87]

I'm not going to argue about the temperatures, just saying that if they are too warm it can cause dehydration.

It could be where he bumped up against something when trying to shed and gets irritated every so often. Might just be something he has for the rest of his life if no medications clear it up.

What type of food do you feed the roaches?

Have you noticed any swelling in limbs?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I keep the thermostat prove on the ground at 95 F and it's pretty bulky, so I just assumed that the air right above it would be about 3 degrees cooler. The previous owner didn't have a thermostat and it was over 100 F, so I think he got used to that and he seemed really unhappy when I had it down at 90 F. With it at 95 F, he still spends almost all of his time on the warm side.

I've only been using Repti-vite with D3 but it also has calcium in it. I know that some people recommend doing a regimen of rotating through different vitamins but I use such a small amount that it didn't seem worth it.

The vet didn't do a swab, but the irritation is pretty localized to just his lip and teeth. Also, I give him regular rounds of antibiotics if it seems really irritated to help it heal and so that he can eat without getting infected so if it were an infection that would have cleared it up. The antibiotics I give him is Ceftazidime (of Cefotaxime depending on the distributor), and I give him about a month of really small doses every 72 hours as recommended by my vet. So he gets enough that it would definitely clear up an infection like mouth rot, I would think.

Also, it's not chronic. When I clean his mouth out it'll be clear for a solid month before it comes back again. So I feel like it's gotta be something in his environment or the way he's eating or something.

Please share pics of the vivarium and of your leo.

How does the inside of his mouth look? Maybe different meds would work better?

How often do you use the D3 Reptivite? My vet suggests using only a little per week at most. I also recommend plain calcium carbonate.

I like and use plain Reptivite and Repti Calcium with D3 just so I can tweak these supplements better. I use plain (no D3) Reptivite no more than 1x per week and Repti Calcium with D3 no more than 1x per week.

What does your leo eat? What do the feeders eat?

 

[littlemissbigcity]

No swelling anywhere, not even in the injection site where I give him meds (teeny insulin needle in the muscles in his front legs, and I alternate each leg). He moves around fine and doesn't seem uncomfortable, except when his mouth hurts and he tries to eat.

I use a tiny amount of the supplement, and I don't leave any in the tank. Also I only feed him 2-3 times a week and I probably only use the supplement about once a week.

I'll work on getting a picture of his set-up, he had a really nice rock hide for the moist hide but it broke so he has a make-shift tupperware until the new one gets here.

The inside of his mouth is pink and normal, the irritation is only on his lip and teeth, right at the edge of his mouth. Also, the "irritation" is more like foreign substances that you can see compacted into his teeth.

He eats only mealworms, and I know that's not ideal. He can't catch crickets because his eyesight isn't great, and I don't have the heart to pull off their legs (sorry). I switched to Dubia roaches because they were better nutrition and he really liked them, but my vet told me to switch back to just mealworms when the roaches were irritating his mouth. I tried switching to different types of worms and I could never get him to eat them so eventually I gave up because they were costing me too much for him to not eat.

I feed them the green gel-type cricket food, and I'll also put carrots and celery in their container when I have some available. For awhile I fed them the roach food that came with my dubias until I ran out.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

No swelling anywhere, not even in the injection site where I give him meds (teeny insulin needle in the muscles in his front legs, and I alternate each leg). He moves around fine and doesn't seem uncomfortable, except when his mouth hurts and he tries to eat.

I use a tiny amount of the supplement, and I don't leave any in the tank. Also I only feed him 2-3 times a week and I probably only use the supplement about once a week.

I'll work on getting a picture of his set-up, he had a really nice rock hide for the moist hide but it broke so he has a make-shift tupperware until the new one gets here.

The inside of his mouth is pink and normal, the irritation is only on his lip and teeth, right at the edge of his mouth. Also, the "irritation" is more like foreign substances that you can see compacted into his teeth.

He eats only mealworms, and I know that's not ideal. He can't catch crickets because his eyesight isn't great, and I don't have the heart to pull off their legs (sorry). I switched to Dubia roaches because they were better nutrition and he really liked them, but my vet told me to switch back to just mealworms when the roaches were irritating his mouth. I tried switching to different types of worms and I could never get him to eat them so eventually I gave up because they were costing me too much for him to not eat.

I feed them the green gel-type cricket food, and I'll also put carrots and celery in their container when I have some available. For awhile I fed them the roach food that came with my dubias until I ran out.

Please share a picture of your leo.

Have you tried hornworms? I've heard that Petsmarts carry those now.

I'd also lightly dust with a plain calcium carbonate supplement weekly. The NOW brand human CaCO3 can be found at health foods stores. That's cheaper than reptile-specific calcium carbonate and exactly the very same stuff.

For a reliable feeder nutrition chart click: http://www.geckotime.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/table-large.png

Please link the green gel-type food you use for the mealworms. The better the diet mealies get, the more nutrients they can share with your leo.

Add some high calcium, low phosphorus veggies like collards, turnip greens, dandelion flowers/greens off to the side for moisture and a calcium boost.

Click: Foods List

 

[littlemissbigcity]

I get my cricket food from a mom and pop pet store (because that's the only pet store in my town), and I have Nature Zone Total Bites.

I tried hornworms, pheonix worms, and silk worms and he wasn't even remotely interested. I can definitely try again but it's always so frustrating to buy like, 300 of them online to meet the minimum and end up throwing them away, you know? He really loved the roaches and I was a big fan of the supplier I bought them from so I was sad when I had to stop them.

I'll look into the calcium carbonate next time I'm at the co-op!

Here's some pictures!

This was my set-up back while I was still using heat lamps; everything's the same except for that. I now have a ceramic heat emitter that I like much more, and then he's not subjected to the lights all the time. The warm side is on the right.
Edit: Also I should note that this picture was taken in the summer before I had AC in my apartment; the cool side sits right around 71-72 now, so try to ignore that thermometer reading haha

I already attached this one to a post but this is what his mouth looked like when it was the worst.

This was the skinniest his tail ever got when his mouth was really bad and he couldn't eat

And this is what he looks like now! Believe it or not he really doesn't spend much time on top of that thing, these pictures were kind of a fluke haha..

Also here's a cute picture of him looking like a baby dragon back when I had a red heat lamp

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Click: Nature Zone Nature Zone Total Bites for Crickets & Feeder Insects Cricket & Insects Food

I was looking for an ingredient listing of the Total Bites.

I don't know if supplementing with a light dusting of a little more vitamin D3 like Repti Calcium with D3 would help. :/ Try dusting all the mealworms 1x per week with your D3 Reptivite, if you're not already doing that.

The reason I like separate Zoo Med powders is that I use ZM D3 Repti Calcium much more often than my ZM plain (no D3) Reptivite.

It seems like he's under good vet care. It would be comforting to resolve his issues.

 

[littlemissbigcity]

Okay, I'll look into that and see what I can do!

I'm definitely on top of taking care of the issue when it arises, I just hate that he's in pain and I know it hurts to scrape that stuff out ):

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

......Unfortunately, it keeps happening. I try to keep a close eye on it, cleaning his mouth out when I notice anything with a curette (a surgical instrument with a little metal loop on the top meant for scraping), and if it bleeds I put SSD ointment on it and give him a round of injectable antibiotics. I work at a small animal vet (cats and dogs) so it's easy to get things to treat him with but I would rather prevent his mouth from hurting at all...

I take him to the veterinary teaching hospital at my university which is one of the best vet programs in the country and they don't know why this is happening. I can't even really tell what it is that is stuck in there, other than little pieces of worms. They told me it could be from not keeping his warm side warm enough, but I actually keep it warmer than is recommended (around 95 F)

All of this to say, has anybody had a similar problem? What was the cause, and how did you prevent it? I feel bad for his little mouth

Silver sulfadiazine cream?

Especially since the SSD goes near his mouth, are you using the ointment or the cream? Ointments like neosporin ointment are petroleum based.

 

[littlemissbigcity]

Yes, the cream! I just called it ointment because I didn't know if anybody would know what it was haha.. We use it on cats and dogs at work all the time so I ordered a little tub for myself. The exotics vet used it on him too. I also put it on his toes if some shed gets stuck on them and they get a little irritated. I love the stuff

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Yes, the cream! I just called it ointment because I didn't know if anybody would know what it was haha.. We use it on cats and dogs at work all the time so I ordered a little tub for myself. The exotics vet used it on him too. I also put it on his toes if some shed gets stuck on them and they get a little irritated. I love the stuff

:biggrin: