Gold dust unexpectedly had babies - help?

[fragment]

Or rather, it was unexpected due to ignorance on my part.

I bought my female gold dust as a fully grown adult back in December, and she was being housed with others in her previous cage. I just assumed they were all female. Well 1-2 months ago when I was doing a full cage clean, I found a couple of eggs tucked back where you couldn't see them just by looking in. I assumed they were infertile since other female lizards lay infertile eggs and I removed them with my tongs. This part probably sounds a bit weird, but I then put them in a little plastic container to see whether they'd keep or rot - if they kept, I thought it'd be cool to hold onto them because I like natural curios like bird feathers, minerals, etc.

Then 2 days ago when I went in to feed my bearded dragon, I glanced over at the container and saw a tiny gecko inside. I don't even know how these things managed to make it because I wasn't taking care of them at all. No humidity control, no special temp control, rolling around, etc. The second one hatched out yesterday.

So I've been trying to slam Google for research but there isn't really a whole lot out there on hatchling care? So far I've been keeping them separately in 16oz or so plastic containers with mesh rubber-banded around the top, moist paper towel, a piece of bark, bottle cap water dish. Cages look like this: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet and Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet Also, I've been keeping them at an ambient temp of around 80F (no basking spot, cages too small) and have a UVB tube light propped up about 8 inches from the lids.

I keep a cap of Pangea/Repashy in there at all times and am using flightless fruit flies, plus I have an order of pinhead crickets that will probably arrive on Wednesday.

Does anyone have a critique of my setup or any tips? I'm just hoping they're actually eating because it doesn't seem the number of flies are going down and I'm not seeing any waste in their cage, but then again it's probably tiny. I've also heard conflicting info on whether to dust the insects or not. Some say do, but another says they don't need much because of their size and the fruit diet covers it.

 

[acpart]

I can't give you a definitive answer because I don't breed gold dusts and the one time I tried breeding day geckos (L. williamsi) my results with the offspring was a disaster. Having spoken to or read about a number of people who are breeding small day geckos, I find that some of them are having a lot of success, some are failing completely and some are having a mixed experience. Essentially, the hatchlings need more moisture possibly than the parents, otherwise the same conditions and the same food. My L. williamsi hatchlings just wouldn't eat and the 7 I produced all died. Your setup sounds reasonable. Hopefully they'll eat the fruit diet and maybe some of the bugs. Good luck.

Aliza

 

[Aimless]

are you also using a MRP diet to supplement? especially if not, I would definitely dust the crickets once a week or at the very least gutload them overnight before feeding.

and we really need pics of the babies if you can get them, for reasons

 

[fragment]

Thank you for the responses, I appreciate it! Yup I'm feeding them both the Repashy Crested Gecko Diet and the Pangea with insects variety. So far they still seem to be doing good and it's been almost a week for the older one, so hopefully they continue to do well. The pinhead crickets should be in tomorrow, which I'm looking forward to because I despise fruit flies.

Sorry to hear about the 7 williamsi losses, that really sucks.

Also I'm not sure I can really get any pictures since my camera is so bad and they're so fast and tiny, but they're definitely cute

 

[fragment]

Okay not such a great update.

I've noticed within the last day that both babies are suddenly having difficulty clinging to smooth surfaces. And both also now have toes that seem to be stuck together. On one, the toes on the front left and back feet seem to be stuck and on the other it's both back feet. Could they have had a bad shed or could it be something else? If it's a shed I'm not sure what to do about the feet since they're so tiny

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thank you for the responses, I appreciate it! Yup I'm feeding them both the Repashy Crested Gecko Diet and the Pangea with insects variety. So far they still seem to be doing good and it's been almost a week for the older one, so hopefully they continue to do well. The pinhead crickets should be in tomorrow, which I'm looking forward to because I despise fruit flies.

Sorry to hear about the 7 williamsi losses, that really sucks.

Also I'm not sure I can really get any pictures since my camera is so bad and they're so fast and tiny, but they're definitely cute

Okay not such a great update.

I've noticed within the last day that both babies are suddenly having difficulty clinging to smooth surfaces. And both also now have toes that seem to be stuck together. On one, the toes on the front left and back feet seem to be stuck and on the other it's both back feet. Could they have had a bad shed or could it be something else? If it's a shed I'm not sure what to do about the feet since they're so tiny

Although I never have kept Phelsuma laticauda, I do keep Phelsuma barbouri under UVB. I don't know whether ambient 80*F is warm enough for them.

Move them into 32 ounce deli cups for their homes. A thicker layer of paper towels will hold the humidity longer. The paper towel should probably dry out between mistings.

It sounds like stuck shed. It's going to be tricky since these guys are tiny.

• Mist heavily.
• Then add something like a rough rock or a rough piece of bark for them to rub against.
• Leave them for several hours while humidity increases.
• If that doesn't work, you may need to help.
• Handle 1 at a time within something like a bathtub (somewhere if they escape, capture is possible).
• See whether a dry q-tip can help remove the shed on their feet.

Have you been feeding pinheads at all? 1/8 inch crickets work for my small hatchlings (different species). Have you been dusting these crickets once in a while? If so, what brand and exact supplement?

What brand and strength UVB? bulb or tube? You've mentioned they are ~8 inches from the UVB.

If they've had no additional source of vitamin D3 (besides Pangea and Repashy powdered diets and UVB) and their health seems impaired, literally a couple licks of Repashy's RescueCal+ (the only calcium + magnesium supplement on the market) might turn them around.

 

[fragment]

Thank you for the response!

Yeah I'm still not sure about the temps either but ever since I first made this post I've dug around for hours trying to find info with no luck.

I'll try to find larger containers to keep them in. I just assumed that smaller was better since they're so tiny it'd be easier for them to find food and such.

As for the extra care info, I've been misting twice a day. I did attempt to feed pinhead crickets but my order of 250 all ended up dying within 3 days of arriving for some reason and that was basically $20+ wasted. So I'm hesitant to order more in case it happens again so I'm not sure what to do there. The only stores I have near me are Petco and Petsmart and they don't carry pinheads. So all I've been feeding basically is Repashy/Pangea and fruit flies - undusted because I haven't had much success getting them dusted without feeling like I'm spilling out half the container of flies

The UVB tube is the "Zilla Slimline Desert 50 UVB T8 Fluorescent Fixture"

 

[fragment]

Also, actually - after trying to gently rinse the feet with water, I think what may be sticking the toes together is the fruit diet. I've been looking them over carefully and I'm not seeing any patches of shed at all. Not 100% on it though.

So if there is no stuck shed but they're still having issues clinging to smooth sides, could it be another health issue? Or do their feet lose traction when there is an imminent shed?

It seems kind of odd that both of them would start displaying this at basically the exact same time

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thank you for the response!

Yeah I'm still not sure about the temps either but ever since I first made this post I've dug around for hours trying to find info with no luck.

I'll try to find larger containers to keep them in. I just assumed that smaller was better since they're so tiny it'd be easier for them to find food and such.

As for the extra care info, I've been misting twice a day. I did attempt to feed pinhead crickets but my order of 250 all ended up dying within 3 days of arriving for some reason and that was basically $20+ wasted. So I'm hesitant to order more in case it happens again so I'm not sure what to do there. The only stores I have near me are Petco and Petsmart and they don't carry pinheads. So all I've been feeding basically is Repashy/Pangea and fruit flies - undusted because I haven't had much success getting them dusted without feeling like I'm spilling out half the container of flies

The UVB tube is the "Zilla Slimline Desert 50 UVB T8 Fluorescent Fixture"

You're welcome.

Your UVB tube may be part of the problem!!! I use those very same Slimline fixtures, but I always replace the tube with a 5.0 UVB Zoo Med Reptisun right from the beginning. My day geckos are in a 15 gallon horizontal enclosure. Gold Dusts use vertical enclosures and probably need Reptisun 10.0s. Zoo Med Reptisun tubes put out very reliable UVB. They are one of the "leaders" in the UVB market. I change mine out annually.

Screen tops reduce UVB transmission by a significant % depending upon how fine the screen top grid is.

This is how I dust fruit flies.

• Take a tall plastic container, like the 6 pound size Fluker's High Calcium Food came in. (I don't use that any more.) This container is large enough!
• Add some Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3 to the bottom
• Add the flies
• Swirl
• Tap the dusting container over your hatchling containers
• Allow just the right number of flies to go inside
• You'll need cloths on the top of the containers so flies don't get out. The geckos and flies will still be able to breathe.

Gold Dusts are pretty common. Surely there are care guidelines out there!

Click: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...feeding-issues-/68574-cricket-guidelines.html

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Also, actually - after trying to gently rinse the feet with water, I think what may be sticking the toes together is the fruit diet. I've been looking them over carefully and I'm not seeing any patches of shed at all. Not 100% on it though.

So if there is no stuck shed but they're still having issues clinging to smooth sides, could it be another health issue? Or do their feet lose traction when there is an imminent shed?

It seems kind of odd that both of them would start displaying this at basically the exact same time

It's not odd at all IF the problem is insufficient vitamin D3. That's why I mentioned unreliable UVB output from the tube that came with your Slimline fixture.

Big Apple Herps beats others' prices on supplies by 5%. The Reptile Supply Company in Sacramento, CA may carry Zoo Med Reptisun UVB tubes.

Order Repashy's RescueCal+ right away! Hatchlings don't have much "wiggle room" before they die. It's a calcium and magnesium supplement. Just a couple licks might really help.


PS:
Reliable UVB lighting is usually all you need! Then no additional vitamin D3 is recommended. Reliable UVB + powdered D3 produces too much D3!

What I'm not sure about is how folks use UVB in combination with powdered diets like Pangea, since it also contains D3.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

[MENTION=60422]IrishEyes[/MENTION]

Have you found a good Gold Dust caresheet? Have you some recommendations on temperature and all?

 

[fragment]

Man, I greatly appreciate your taking the time to help - I've been having a really hard time finding info out there haha.

I've got the Reptisun tube and some RescueCal ordered so hopefully they won't take too long to arrive. In the meantime I'll try to keep the fruit flies dusted and I also picked up some baby food to mix cal+D3 powder in. These little guys are sure getting expensive! For the RescueCal, should I attempt to mix a drop of it into the fruit diet or should I try to see if I can get them to lick a little directly with a pipette? It mentions measuring it based on body weight but of course that's not going to work with something so tiny

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Man, I greatly appreciate your taking the time to help - I've been having a really hard time finding info out there haha.

I've got the Reptisun tube and some RescueCal ordered so hopefully they won't take too long to arrive. In the meantime I'll try to keep the fruit flies dusted and I also picked up some baby food to mix cal+D3 powder in. These little guys are sure getting expensive! For the RescueCal, should I attempt to mix a drop of it into the fruit diet or should I try to see if I can get them to lick a little directly with a pipette? It mentions measuring it based on body weight but of course that's not going to work with something so tiny

I hope our efforts are successful. In the meantime, DON'T dust with D3 at every feeding! D3 is fat soluble. Lightly dusted insects with D3 at one feeding per week is probably good without UVB. Too much D3 can cause reverse MBD.

Did you order the Reptisun 10.0 tube?

Mix some RescueCal+ with a little water and pipette one drop onto each of their noses. See what happens within the next 24 hours. If they still have trouble climbing, mix up a little more RescueCal+ and give a 2nd drop. After a while it gets sticky, so use it soon after mixing.

Keep your RescueCal+ container in the refrigerator.

What brand of calcium with D3 powder have you? Rep Cal's calcium with D3 contains 38x more vitamin D3 than Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 does. It seems like Repti Calcium with D3 would work best. Petco carries both.

Were you able to give them larger homes? Then they can exercise without tramping through their suppers.

 

[IrishEyes]

[MENTION=60422]IrishEyes[/MENTION]

Have you found a good Gold Dust caresheet? Have you some recommendations on temperature and all?

I had 4 bookmarks for care sheets, but two FB ones are no longer there. So here are the other two I use, both with pretty much the same info:

Phelsuma Care Sheet

"Most species of day geckos require daytime temperatures of 81 to 89 degrees Fahrenheit (27 to 31 degrees Celsius) and a nighttime 10 degrees F. (5 degrees C.) temperature drop to around 70 to 80 degrees F (21 to 27 degrees C.). Most species of day geckos require a relative humidity of 50 to 85 percent".

Gold Dust Day Gecko Care Sheet - Phelsuma laticauda

"Basking spot temperatures can and should reach into the low 90s, while the coolest side of the cage can drop down into the low 70s."

I hope this helps somewhat, although I think Elizabeth has pretty much covered it all, from what I can tell. She's my "go to" person with questions about day geckos and flying geckos , plus husbandry issues for many more species . A proper "gecko goddess" :biggrin:

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Even if you have Rep Cal's Calcium with D3, I'd mix a wee bit in some fruit baby food or add that wee bit to Pangea's Fruit Mix with Insects. It's important to give them a little D3 asap, even before RescueCal+ arrives.

Click here for a new GU link: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...-sheets-contributed-irisheyes.html#post472853

 

[fragment]

Thanks for the links! So the ambient temp I would think is pretty okay for now, barring the lack of the basking spot since it's not really feasible at the moment.

I did buy the Reptisun 10.0, no worries No larger containers yet but I think I recall seeing something at Walmart that might work once I can get into town. The RescueCal isn't scheduled to arrive until sometime next week so hopefully they can hang on until then. Aside from the lack of grip they're otherwise acting completely normal and active. I was able to successfully dust some fruit flies, so I hope they were able to eat some before the powder gets worn off and they were able to get in some of those vitamins.

The cal+D3 is the Reptical, but it sounds like I'll need to pick up some cal without D3 as well

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thanks for the links! So the ambient temp I would think is pretty okay for now, barring the lack of the basking spot since it's not really feasible at the moment.

I did buy the Reptisun 10.0, no worries No larger containers yet but I think I recall seeing something at Walmart that might work once I can get into town. The RescueCal isn't scheduled to arrive until sometime next week so hopefully they can hang on until then. Aside from the lack of grip they're otherwise acting completely normal and active. I was able to successfully dust some fruit flies, so I hope they were able to eat some before the powder gets worn off and they were able to get in some of those vitamins.

The cal+D3 is the Reptical, but it sounds like I'll need to pick up some cal without D3 as well

You're welcome.

Have you Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 right now? Some product names are quite similar. Just making certain we're on the same page.

 

[fragment]

Whoops sorry I had that wrong, it's Rep-Cal. This one: https://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-SRP0...ie=UTF8&qid=1496364760&sr=8-1&keywords=repcal

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Whoops sorry I had that wrong, it's Rep-Cal. This one: https://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-SRP0...ie=UTF8&qid=1496364760&sr=8-1&keywords=repcal

Rep Cal's Calcium with D3 contains 38x more vitamin D3 than Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 does. It seems like Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 would work best. Petco carries both.

 

[fragment]

Another update

I've had them lick some RescueCal once a day for the past two days now and there have been no improvements so far The new bulb isn't scheduled to arrive until the 10th.

Also I'm still not 100% sure on what's going on with the toes, if it's the sticky fruit mix that's gluing them together or if that might be involved in their climbing difficulty. It's difficult to try and soak them because of how tiny they are and they keep jumping away when I try to squeeze out water droplets on their feet. But before I've been able to carefully get the toes on one of their feet to separate after wetting them down so I don't believe it's stuck shed holding them together.