First Baby Hatched this Evening--P.l.laticauda. No one told me they're THIS tiny

[IrishEyes]

This evening, the first of the original 3 baby Gold Dust Day Geckos hatched, and man, is he ADORABLE!

Being an extremely nervous baby gecko "Mama", I have a couple of questions, mostly because he's just so dang little!

1) When do I give him his first meal?
2) When should I transfer him to his own space, and what is the best substrate (you're looking at moist cypress in the egg deli cup)? Wet paper towel? Moss? Cyprus? Something else?
3) How do you move a <30mm long lizard to its new home when the time comes?
4) Does he look ok? He looks good to me .

Thanks!!!

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

:yahoo:, IrishEyes!

My mourning geckos are 1 & 3/8 inches long upon hatching.

• Usually I wait about 24 hours after hatching to feed my chirpers.
• L. lugubris moms are cannibalistic! Yes, they eat their own kids!
• I'd transfer it right away.
• Guide it into a small deli cup. Have the lid ready.
• I'm keeping hatchling chirpers in 2.5 gallon tanks, but I've only got 1 left. So the rest of them have gone into medium Kritter Keepers (individually).
• I keep 2 layers of blue Scott's shop paper towels in each container. Once a day I pour about 2 ounces of water on the paper towels. Since these guys don't climb their walls, what I've done for them seems good humidity-wise. I live just south of Seaside.
• Each setup has 1-2 black film canister hides + plastic foliage + cork bark.
• IF I'm not feeding them, I will spray the containers.

 

[IrishEyes]

Thanks for all of the advice, Elizabeth! Truly appreciated.

No worries about cannibalistic parents--these guys/eggs are in a deli cup (small), on the floor of the empty ExoTerra I've got ready for the pair of Flyers I'm waiting on from someone. So the temp and the humidity seem good in there.

Great advice about hides, towels for substrate, and places to climb and/or hide behind. I will follow your advice.

First foods for them, and how much/how often to feed? Wingless fruit flies? Pinhead crickets? Something else? The fruitflies seem to be easier to come by than pinhead crickets, but I'll find/order online if necessary whatever you think is best for them. Also, your advice regarding calcium and D3? Before you think I'm totally ignorant, please know that I've been researching, AND have a good book on breeding Day Geckos. But I really like to hear the advice and points of view of experienced breeders that I have the opportunity to communicate with.

BTW, we're in the northern part of Lincoln City (Oceanlake neighborhood). We're a bit of a drive from each other, but perhaps someday we could meet up halfway-ish and have coffee or lunch .

Thanks again for all of your help and advice. It's TRULY appreciated!

:yahoo:, IrishEyes!

My mourning geckos are 1 & 3/8 inches long upon hatching.

• Usually I wait about 24 hours after hatching to feed my chirpers.
• L. lugubris moms are cannibalistic! Yes, they eat their own kids!
• I'd transfer it right away.
• Guide it into a small deli cup. Have the lid ready.
• I'm keeping hatchling chirpers in 2.5 gallon tanks, but I've only got 1 left. So the rest of them have gone into medium Kritter Keepers (individually).
• I keep 2 layers of blue Scott's shop paper towels in each container. Once a day I pour about 2 ounces of water on the paper towels. Since these guys don't climb their walls, what I've done for them seems good humidity-wise. I live just south of Seaside.
• Each setup has 1-2 black film canister hides + plastic foliage + cork bark.
• IF I'm not feeding them, I will spray the containers.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

You're welcome.

Chirpers aren't arboreal; P.l. laticauda are.

I order 7 day old, then 10 day old, crickets from Armstrong's. PetCo carries fruit flies. I feed the chirpers just about daily. Your hatchlings may like Pangea Complete Diets too.

• Feed several 7 day old crickets at first. I "eyeball" the cricket number/size based upon the size of their bellies.
• What do you have for supplements?

PMed you.

Thanks for all of the advice, Elizabeth! Truly appreciated.

No worries about cannibalistic parents--these guys/eggs are in a deli cup (small), on the floor of the empty ExoTerra I've got ready for the pair of Flyers I'm waiting on from someone. So the temp and the humidity seem good in there.

Great advice about hides, towels for substrate, and places to climb and/or hide behind. I will follow your advice.

First foods for them, and how much/how often to feed? Wingless fruit flies? Pinhead crickets? Something else? The fruitflies seem to be easier to come by than pinhead crickets, but I'll find/order online if necessary whatever you think is best for them. Also, your advice regarding calcium and D3? Before you think I'm totally ignorant, please know that I've been researching, AND have a good book on breeding Day Geckos. But I really like to hear the advice and points of view of experienced breeders that I have the opportunity to communicate with.

BTW, we're in the northern part of Lincoln City (Oceanlake neighborhood). We're a bit of a drive from each other, but perhaps someday we could meet up halfway-ish and have coffee or lunch .

Thanks again for all of your help and advice. It's TRULY appreciated!

 

[IrishEyes]

Hi Elizabeth. Besides insects (mostly gut-loaded and dusted crickets--Arcadia Insect Fuel Earth Pro Gutload), the Day Geckos also enjoy Pangea Complete with Insects. I was also sent a sample of Pangea Breeding Formula Complete Diet for Reproductive Adult Geckos. I'll put a pinch of that into their regular Pangea every now and again.

Supplements are:

100% pure human grade Calcium Carbonate
Zoo Med's Reptivite w/OUT D3
Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-All--Calcium/Mineral w/D3 but w/OUT Phosphorus
Zoo Med Repti Calcium w/D3
Zoo Med 10.0 UVB bulbs

The crickets/insects for the adults get some combo of this (or perhaps just one) once a week.
I'm hoping you can tell me which of these supplements I should be dusting the pinhead crickets I picked up today with, and how often, please.

I hope that answers all of your questions .

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi Elizabeth. Besides insects (mostly gut-loaded and dusted crickets--Arcadia Insect Fuel Earth Pro Gutload), the Day Geckos also enjoy Pangea Complete with Insects. I was also sent a sample of Pangea Breeding Formula Complete Diet for Reproductive Adult Geckos. I'll put a pinch of that into their regular Pangea every now and again.

Supplements are:

100% pure human grade Calcium Carbonate
Zoo Med's Reptivite w/OUT D3
Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-All--Calcium/Mineral w/D3 but w/OUT Phosphorus
Zoo Med Repti Calcium w/D3
Zoo Med 10.0 UVB bulbs

The crickets/insects for the adults get some combo of this (or perhaps just one) once a week.
I'm hoping you can tell me which of these supplements I should be dusting the pinhead crickets I picked up today with, and how often, please.

I hope that answers all of your questions .

I'd spray your gold dust hatchling(s) 1x per day in the evening.

There's a big difference in our care. I only use Zoo Med UVB Reptisun tubes for my Phelsuma barbouri. Zoo Med tells me their CF bulbs are just as reliable in UVB output. When you use top-rated UVB, that should be the only vitamin D3 source. Proper UVB supplies all the D3 they need, provided they have free range of a vivarium.

I "think" it's OK to use Pangea's diets for them. Those diets also contain vitamin D3. But I'd NOT dust with any vitamin D3 containing supplement.

I wouldn't use Sticky Tongue Farm's vitamin and mineral supplement too. That doesn't contain the wee amount of vitamin A acetate (retinol) lizards need to metabolize beta carotene. That supplement also contains vitamin D3.

Bear in mind my chirpers don't get UVB at all. They're a "nocturnal" species. They are pretty reclusive during the day. For both breeding females I add a small dish of shaved cuttlebone in their vivariums 24/7. Here's how I supplement 2 breeding females and my younger male.

• Monday ~ 2/2 medium crickets lightly dusted with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3
• Wednesday ~ 2/2 medium crickets lightly dusted with plain preciptated calcium carbonate
• Friday ~ 2/2 medium crickets lightly dusted with Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamins without D3

For the hatchlings I've been dusting most ALL crickets @ 3 of 6 of feedings per week as above. I "eyeball" the cricket number/size based upon the size of their bellies.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Have you seen this?


/\ click to enlarge

• 
  Vet #1: The above scanned article is written by Douglas R. Mader, DVM.
• Vet #2: Mark Burgess, DVM, has performed many lizard, gecko, and chameleon necropsies which determined that the cause of death was massive over-calcification of the soft tissues, so this isn't "just talk". Dr. Burgess once wrote a letter to the FDA in regards to Rep Cal's calcium with D3. It's from another forum so I'm unable to share it.

 

[IrishEyes]

No, I hadn't seen that article. Very interesting, and more than just a little concerning with regards to proper husbandry for the little geckos that I adore. As for the supplements, it gets more than just a little confusing--and sometimes very frustrating--for those of us who are first time keepers/breeders of geckos and other lizards, and information--often contradictory--comes from us at all sides, when all we're trying to do is find the "perfect" (which probably doesn't exist!) husbandry techniques for the reptiles we keep. My snakes, which are the main focus of my reptile collection, don't get supplements, so I can only go with what I read here and other places with regards to geckos. So I thank you VERY much for your input, because I think of you as my "go to" expert in the care of the gecko species that I keep, or want to eventually keep (like the flyers that I'm waiting for an unrelated male to go with the female I have on hold (all CBB), or the Leachie baby we just put a deposit on, and who will be ready to go in about a month) :biggrin:. I think that I really need to stick with one, or perhaps just a very few, known, trusted "mentor"/keepers for advice, rather than listening to 50 different opinions from 50 different keepers :shock:!

I just checked the boxes for the T8 bulbs, and they're ReptiSun 10.0. I think! LOL! We bought some slim-line fixtures, and they came with one brand of UVB bulb, which we immediately switched out for (I believe) the ReptiSuns. The problem is that we kept both brands' boxes to put the unused T8s in, which we've done in case we have an "emergency" and need the original brand of bulbs that came with the fixtures until we can order or visit a pet store to get more ReptiSun bulbs, or in case someone we know who can't afford UVB bulbs at all but needs "something" to use until they can get something better. Then we can pass on the original, unused bulbs to a person who needs them. I figure something for critters that need UVB is better than nothing at all?

Another question, if you don't mind--you say "Monday ~ 2/2 medium crickets...." What, exactly, does that mean? Do you give 2 crickets per gecko per day that you dust them, and both crickets get dusted? Please excuse me if I come off sounding like an idiot... .

If you think the supplementation that you use for your nocturnal "chirpers" is appropriate for my diurnal Day Geckos, I can easily enough switch to your schedule, since I have more supplements laying around here than "Carter has little liver pills", if you can remember THAT ancient old advertisement !

Thanks again for everything, and please feel free to keep that advice coming! I trust yours implicitly.

BTW--those Leachies are ENORMOUS--or at least the babies' parents are! I swear, they're almost as big as my conformation show dog Chihuahua (3-4 lbs at 2 years, depending on her appetite at any give time)! LOL! If you keep them, please feel free to add advice about their keeping, as well as advice for the flyers I'll have coming w/in a couple of weeks or so (I think). .

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

......

I just checked the boxes for the T8 bulbs, and they're ReptiSun 10.0. I think! LOL! We bought some slim-line fixtures, and they came with one brand of UVB bulb, which we immediately switched out for (I believe) the ReptiSuns. The problem is that we kept both brands' boxes to put the unused T8s in, which we've done in case we have an "emergency" and need the original brand of bulbs that came with the fixtures until we can order or visit a pet store to get more ReptiSun bulbs, or in case someone we know who can't afford UVB bulbs at all but needs "something" to use until they can get something better. Then we can pass on the original, unused bulbs to a person who needs them. I figure something for critters that need UVB is better than nothing at all?

Another question, if you don't mind--you say "Monday ~ 2/2 medium crickets...." What, exactly, does that mean? Do you give 2 crickets per gecko per day that you dust them, and both crickets get dusted? Please excuse me if I come off sounding like an idiot... .

If you think the supplementation that you use for your nocturnal "chirpers" is appropriate for my diurnal Day Geckos, I can easily enough switch to your schedule, since I have more supplements laying around here than "Carter has little liver pills", if you can remember THAT ancient old advertisement !

Thanks again for everything, and please feel free to keep that advice coming! I trust yours implicitly.

You're always welcome! :biggrin:

Good switching the tubes on the Slimlines for ReptiSun 10.0s. (It seems so long ago that we had those conversations.) I only trust ReptiSun tubes and bulbs as a vitamin D3 replacement. Most other sources are IFFY. I would not even share the tubes that came with the Slimline fixtures! There are other UVB lighting options on the market now.

Powdered D3 supplements take the place of proper UVB tubes.

A Zoo Med ReptiSun 10.0 tube covers you entirely for UVB. Those ReptiSun tubes supply all the D3 your Phelsuma l. laticauda need as long as all can self regulate.

Don't use any supplement that contains ANY vitamin D3. That includes your Sticky Tongue Farms supplement.

Use your Reptivite multivitamins without D3 sparingly @ 1 feeding per week. For breeding females and hatchlings I'd also use plain calcium carbonate @ 2 other feedings per week. Dust all the crickets at those specific feedings.

Yes. For the chirpers "2/2" means I give 2 crickets to each adult on feeding days and that each cricket gets dusted.

Don't use the schedule I shared for my chirpers. All your day geckos have UVB. That's a huge difference. I only shared the schedule to demonstrate that they're thriving on that schedule.

I've never kept leachies. I know at least 4 keepers in Washington who do. Some of them will also be at the show.

Although I keep some fliers, I've not bred them. My oldest flier was captive hatched in Seattle. As long as it's not too warm, she'll be at the 8/26th show. If you're getting yours from Christie K., go to her for info.

There's soooooo much conflicting info on the internet. Hang in there!

 

[IrishEyes]

WOOT! Baby number 2 just hatched about 5 minutes ago! He's not much smaller than baby number one, although #1 is healthy-looking and active, so I assume he's doing all right.

I'll let baby #2 hang in his hatching cup for a day or so, just to let him get used to his new world, and then move him into his new home. Unless baby # 3 hatches today, in which case I'll move #2 to his own cup immediately.

New babies. How wonderful! Now, if I can raise them up to healthy juveniles, I'll have to decide whether to keep them or find them new homes. Depends on how much space I have spare, I suppose.

Welcome to the world, Baby #2!

 

[IrishEyes]

WOOT! Baby number 2 just hatched about 5 minutes ago! He's actually larger than baby number one, although #1 is healthy-looking and active, so I assume he's doing all right. It makes me wonder, though, if Baby #1 hatched early at 28 days, or this guy hatched late (a month later), accounting for "date of hatch" size difference? They're from different clutches laid the same day.

I'll let baby #2 hang in his hatching cup for a day or so, just to let him get used to his new world, and then move him into his new home. Unless baby # 3 hatches today, in which case I'll move #2 to his own cup immediately.

New babies. How wonderful! Now, if I can raise them up to healthy juveniles, I'll have to decide whether to keep them or find them new homes. Depends on how much space I have spare, I suppose.

Welcome to the world, Baby #2! In this photo, the arrow shows the egg he hatched from. #2, himself, is hanging upside down from the lid .

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

:yahoo: I've got the whole picture! I love those visuals. :biggrin:

You've got lots of options.

 

[IrishEyes]

Now, how's THIS for cool??? Baby number 3 just hatched about 30 minutes ago. He's active, thirsty, and hungry! Plowing through water droplets and wingless fruit flies like there's no tomorrow. Ditto baby #2. Hungry little "hippos"!

So now we have 3 adorable little hatchling Day Geckos, and 6 eggs. 2 of those eggs have been "incubating" since 7/11, and 4 were laid overnight, last night. I wonder how many will hatch, and if I'll be able to raise them to happy, healthy adults/juveniles. I suspect they'll be going to other homes once they're sexed, if they survive, so cross your fingers, toes, tails, wings, or anything else that I don't manage to kill them off through bad husbandry. I'm trying to do the right things, dog knows!

 

[IrishEyes]

Speaking of hungry and thirsty, these two hatchlings behave much differently than baby #1. I've never actually seen him eat either live critters or out of his little bottle cap full of Pangea Complete w/Insects. He seems actively terrified of the pinhead crickets and wingless fruit flies, and flees from them when I add them to his little home. Yet he is still active, alert, and otherwise seems healthy.

Thoughts on this, anyone with experience raising babies? I can only assume he's eating something when I'm not looking, but I can't guarantee it. The fruit flies disappear, but since they can get out of even the tiniest breathing holes in the deli cups, I don't know how many are being consumed, and how many are simply escaping. The pinheads can't get out, but since I don't count how many I put in his cup, I really don't know if they're being eaten or not.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Speaking of hungry and thirsty, these two hatchlings behave much differently than baby #1. I've never actually seen him eat either live critters or out of his little bottle cap full of Pangea Complete w/Insects. He seems actively terrified of the pinhead crickets and wingless fruit flies, and flees from them when I add them to his little home. Yet he is still active, alert, and otherwise seems healthy.

Thoughts on this, anyone with experience raising babies? I can only assume he's eating something when I'm not looking, but I can't guarantee it. The fruit flies disappear, but since they can get out of even the tiniest breathing holes in the deli cups, I don't know how many are being consumed, and how many are simply escaping. The pinheads can't get out, but since I don't count how many I put in his cup, I really don't know if they're being eaten or not.

Does #1 seem to be growing?

Do you know whether UVB rays can sufficiently penetrate plastic?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Now, how's THIS for cool??? Baby number 3 just hatched about 30 minutes ago. He's active, thirsty, and hungry! Plowing through water droplets and wingless fruit flies like there's no tomorrow. Ditto baby #2. Hungry little "hippos"!

So now we have 3 adorable little hatchling Day Geckos, and 6 eggs. 2 of those eggs have been "incubating" since 7/11, and 4 were laid overnight, last night. I wonder how many will hatch, and if I'll be able to raise them to happy, healthy adults/juveniles. I suspect they'll be going to other homes once they're sexed, if they survive, so cross your fingers, toes, tails, wings, or anything else that I don't manage to kill them off through bad husbandry. I'm trying to do the right things, dog knows!

:banana: :cheer: :banana:​

 

[IrishEyes]

Does #1 seem to be growing?

Do you know whether UVB rays can sufficiently penetrate plastic?

Hmmm... not growing that I can see, but neither is he looking unhealthy--and he certainly can run like the wind if, when I mist his little tub, some of the water hits him.

From what I've read, UVB rays don't penetrate plastic, so I've been supplementing his food with calcium every 2 days, and calcium + D3 once/week. Do you think that's sufficient or is it too much?

And thank you for the dancing banana congrats--they make me smile .

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hmmm... not growing that I can see, but neither is he looking unhealthy--and he certainly can run like the wind if, when I mist his little tub, some of the water hits him.

From what I've read, UVB rays don't penetrate plastic, so I've been supplementing his food with calcium every 2 days, and calcium + D3 once/week. Do you think that's sufficient or is it too much?

And thank you for the dancing banana congrats--they make me smile .

I love those little dancing feet! :biggrin:

How about adding wee bit of Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamins without D3 @ 1 feeding per week?

Here's what I do for my chirpers.

• Feed hatchlings just about daily.
• Feed moms and the dad 3x per week.

 

[IrishEyes]

I love those little dancing feet! :biggrin:

How about adding wee bit of Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamins without D3 @ 1 feeding per week?

Here's what I do for my chirpers.

• Feed hatchlings just about daily.
• Feed moms and the dad 3x per week.

The Good with the Bad....

This morning I got up to find another new hatchling in the egg deli cup . Another early hatchling like the first one. He looks healthy and moves freely and quickly, like they're supposed to do. I've already transferred him into his own deli cup. That's the good .

The bad is that I got up this morning to find my "firstborn" baby dead in his cup. He looked very thin, although I've often seen him eating. What went wrong? Dog knows. I have to wonder if it has something to do with the fact that Z and I were rear-ended VERY hard in Portland the day before--bad enough that the car crumpled and is totaled (except for lots of soft tissue aches and pains, we're fine, luckily). Because it happened during rush hour, it took 4 or 5 hours to get a tow truck that was willing to bring us home to the coast (we have AAA Prime, and have several times per year when a tow truck can take us up to 100 miles at a tow--this was #2--the first time being a breakdown on I-5). The first one came w/in an hour, but his dispatcher hadn't let him know where we needed to go, and because he is contractually limited to 65 hours/wk, which he'd already done, he went away. Several hours later, another driver came who was actually willing and able to take us all the way home with our totaled Saturn. Long story short, since we didn't get home until after 2 am today, I didn't get a chance to mist or feed the babies yesterday, since we'd left town before the lights were on in their vivs....

So now I'm wondering if that one day of not being specifically fed or misted caused his death (even though there was most likely 3 or 4 flightless fruit flies left over in his deli cup from the day before's feeding). After all, he was smaller than the others, and "premature" by several days. If he died of any other cause, I don't know what it is. The others are thriving, seemingly, and the new hatchling seems healthy and happy, so far. They're all getting supplemental calcium and D3 on the schedule that Elizabeth recommends, and they sit 6" under a UVB (10.0 Reptisun) filter several times/day for an hour or two at a time, just in case any of it gets through the plastic lids. Their heat and humidity is fine. So I worry that one day of not eating (pinhead crickets or wingless fruit flies, along with Pangea Complete w/Insects, mixed up fairly thin) is what caused his passing. Needless to say, I'm very sad to lose the little guy. I'm really fond of them, and the thought that something I may have done wrong caused his death fills me with horror and heartbreak :-(.

But there's a new li'l guy in the world, and with any luck whatsoever, he'll grow up to be strong and healthy. Welcome to the world, Li'l Guy/Gal! And RIP, li'l Stubby. I wish I could have watched you grow up....

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

They're all getting supplemental calcium and D3 on the schedule that Elizabeth recommends, and they sit 6" under a UVB (10.0 Reptisun) filter several times/day for an hour or two at a time, just in case any of it gets through the plastic lids.

I doubt whether 1 day without food or misting would have caused Stubby's passing. I'm sorry. May he rest in peace.

IF they are getting D3 from dusting all the bugs with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 @ 1 feeding per week + receiving adequate UVB from your 10.0 + feeding Pangea's Completer with Insects, that's too much D3!

Let's touch bases with Melody at the 8/26th show. She's the P. l. laticauda breeder in my neighborhood.

WOW about your rear-ender! Glad that you guys were not hurt much. You were lucky! Is the Saturn the car you "just" bought?