Sick/Medicated Leopard Gecko taking long time to shed

[bubbanarf]

My 10-year old leopard gecko, Hermie, is currently under treatment for kidney failure/gout and the presence of an infection. I just gave him his last dose of antibiotic this morning (a 10-day treatment). He is continuing his daily doses of allopurinol.

Four days ago, I saw the first signs that he was going to shed. Usually it takes 24-48 hours for my geckos to show initial signs of a shed through to being completely done with it.

This is the fourth day, and Hermie's skin does not yet look ready to come off, and aside from a little bit of rubbing around the tank items yesterday, he has not started trying to get it off. I have soaked him in shallow warm water a couple of times in the past four days, but i have mostly been trying to leave him alone (aside from giving medications).

I have included some pictures of what he has looked like over the past few days. His head took the longest to go whitish, but still nowhere near the looks-like-he's-wearing-pajamas type of skin that's ready to come off. It's started to crack and peel away at his legs, which were the first to show signs of shedding. His underbelly is leathery. I have tried pulling gently on some of the areas that cracked, and it was not super easy to come off, so I left it alone.

He has spent SO MUCH time in his humid hide over the past four days (he's in there right now), so humidity is definitely not the issue. I'm wondering if this is normal for a gecko who is not feeling well or on medication, and at what point I should intervene?


Tank info:

20-gallon long, paper towels as substrate, lives alone

Heat pad on warm side (variety of sheltered places to hide ranging from 85-95 degrees F depending on where I shoot with my temp gun and how warm the room is) Cool side around 68-70 F

Humid hide is tupperware container with moist paper towel. It is in the middle of his tank between the hot and cold sides, but since he was undergoing antibiotic treatment, I put a USB-powered low-heat mat under the humid hide to keep it from getting cold. So the humid hide is not toasty, but it's not cold.

He has an Arcadio Shade-dweller UVB lamp and eats dubia roaches.



My main questions are if anyone else has observed this type of drawn-out shedding process for their geckos who are sick, and at what point should I try to help him start getting the shed off?

Thanks!

 

[Aimless]

kidney issues can contribute to shedding issues. I'd give him a little more time, and definitely with the baths. he can absorb some additional moisture that way too.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Humid hide is tupperware container with moist paper towel. It is in the middle of his tank between the hot and cold sides, but since he was undergoing antibiotic treatment, I put a USB-powered low-heat mat under the humid hide to keep it from getting cold. So the humid hide is not toasty, but it's not cold.

Does Hermie have something rough to rub against? What's the temp of his humid hide with the USB-powered low-heat mat?

I highly recommend increasing the temps of Hermie's humid hide to 88-92*F 24/7. That may be all your leo needs to shed.

Sphagnum moss or Eco Earth's coco fiber will hold humid hide moisture better than moist paper towel does.

 

[bubbanarf]

Thank you for the suggestions. I will grab another heat mat to increase the temperature of the humid hide. I believe last time I checked, it was 85 degrees on the surface of the mat, but more like 80 inside the humid hide (since the heat has to get through the plastic bottom of the tub and the moist paper towel).

And yes, there are a wide variety of things to rub against inside the tank, including in and around his cave, the humid hide, and a plastic textured log. I have seen him rubbing against all of those items in the past.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thank you for the suggestions. I will grab another heat mat to increase the temperature of the humid hide. I believe last time I checked, it was 85 degrees on the surface of the mat, but more like 80 inside the humid hide (since the heat has to get through the plastic bottom of the tub and the moist paper towel).

And yes, there are a wide variety of things to rub against inside the tank, including in and around his cave, the humid hide, and a plastic textured log. I have seen him rubbing against all of those items in the past.

You're welcome.

I hope that improvement will help Hermie shed.

How are you doing for powdered supplements? Has there been any change there?

 

[bubbanarf]

Supplementation is something that I have only recently changed/fixed, as I was too-long under the impression that dubia roaches were nutritious enough on their own, and that proper nutrition could be passed on to the geckos through the roaches themselves and what the roaches were eating. I have always had a small dish of calcium powder available to my geckos, but had stopped dusting with multivitamins.

I know now that this is NOT okay.

I have started out with Repashy Calcium Plus vitamins. I was looking for something with Vitamin A. I am using that with my other geckos now on their roaches once a week. They also only recently got UVB lights above each cage (Arcadia Shadedweller fixtures and bulbs). Hopefully the small amount of D3 in the Repashy Calcium plus combined with the D3 they can make on their own via the UVB is not going to be too much. Considering that they urge people to dust with that particular product on each feeding, I figured it was not going to be too much.


Hermie has refused to eat bugs since the end of May. I was giving him carnivore care prior to the vet visit and learning about his extremely elevated uric acid levels. The vet gave me a lower-protein insectivore diet to give him, called Reliable Protein. I soak the pellets and mush them up in water and still give him liquid food via a syringe (luckily, he readily licks it off his lips when I provide it). Hermie has had two different sub-cutaneous fluids injections thus far, with extra vitamins and things, but his source of nutrition right now is the liquid food.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I notice you joined GU in 2011.

• Have you checked in now and then?
• Does Hermie's vet have some idea where the kidney failure came from and what caused Hermie's gout?
• Thanks for sharing the lower-protein insectivore diet called Reliable Protein. I'll put that "in my pocket"! ;-)

Here's a quote from your last post.

1. Supplementation is something that I have only recently changed/fixed, as I was too-long under the impression that dubia roaches were nutritious enough on their own, and that proper nutrition could be passed on to the geckos through the roaches themselves and what the roaches were eating. I have always had a small dish of calcium powder available to my geckos, but had stopped dusting with multivitamins.
Feeding a high quality dry diet to the bugs and worms is the beginning of good nutrition. But it's NOT enough! Then a leo needs additional calcium + D3, plain calcium (only when they are growing), and multivitamin supplementation via light dustings.

I know now that this is NOT okay.
I wish you had known sooner.

2. I have started out with Repashy Calcium Plus vitamins. I was looking for something with Vitamin A. I am using that with my other geckos now on their roaches once a week. They also only recently got UVB lights above each cage (Arcadia Shadedweller fixtures and bulbs). Hopefully the small amount of D3 in the Repashy Calcium plus combined with the D3 they can make on their own via the UVB is not going to be too much. Considering that they urge people to dust with that particular product on each feeding, I figured it was not going to be too much.
Repashy's Calcium Plus multivitamins contain both vitamin A acetate (retinol) and beta carotene.

Is Hermie sticking out some body part each day to soak up UVB from Arcadia's Shade Dweller lighting? Are your other geckos (leos ?) doing likewise?


3. Hermie has refused to eat bugs since the end of May. I was giving him carnivore care prior to the vet visit and learning about his extremely elevated uric acid levels. The vet gave me a lower-protein insectivore diet to give him, called Reliable Protein. I soak the pellets and mush them up in water and still give him liquid food via a syringe (luckily, he readily licks it off his lips when I provide it). Hermie has had two different sub-cutaneous fluids injections thus far, with extra vitamins and things, but his source of nutrition right now is the liquid food.
Crickets contain lower protein than roaches do according to this chart.

​

Here's a tale of Samurai Drifter's leo Merlin with gout.

• For link 133 click: Leo Merlin's struggles with gout......GU's Samurai Drifter -- December 2016
• For link 134 click: Leo Merlin's struggles with gout (continued): Vitamin D3 Overdosage in an Actual Leopard Gecko!......Samurai Drifter -- 2017 threads

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

FYI: GU's acpart (Aliza) uses Repashy's Calcium Plus multivitamins for all her leos. Here's how she does it.

#144---Repashy's Calcium Plus multivitamin Schedules for Leos -- Feb 2019 update
Oftentimes experienced keepers and breeders tweak supplements more than the manufacturer suggests based upon the health of their leopard geckos.

Powdered supplements stick to crickets and to dubia better than they do to mealworms or to superworms.

Here's the Repashy's Calcium Plus (all-in-one) multivitamins schedule that GU's acpart (Aliza Arzt) has used for all her leopard geckos ----> breeders and non-breeders. You'll need 2 different powders.

-----> February 2019 -- "I've been using an 'every other' feeding schedule with Repashy's Calcium Plus since 2009. Adults get fed Mondays and Thursdays. They get Repashy on Thursdays.

"I fed juveniles and hatchlings 3 times a week. (They would be getting mealworms so there would always be some in their bowls.) For juveniles I'd dust with Repashy's Calcium Plus at every other feeding. For hatchlings 0-2 months old & any slow-growing leopard geckos under ~6 grams, I would also dust every other feeding in addition to keeping plain calcium in the cage 24/7."

Aliza

Repashy's Calcium Plus (all-in-one) multivitamins
(without UVB)​

1. Feeding & Supplementing HATCHLING leopard geckos - 0-2 months old & any slow-growing leopard geckos under ~6 grams ~ Feed 3x per week.

• Feed Tuesdays, Thursdays, & Saturdays
• Dust prey with Repashy's Calcium Plus at every other feeding
• ALSO: Keep a bottle cap of plain calcium in the cage 24/7.
• [See dusting chart below]

2. Feeding & Supplementing JUVENILE leopard geckos ~ Feed 3x per week.

• Feed Tuesdays, Thursdays, & Saturdays
• Dust prey with Repashy's Calcium Plus at every other feeding
• [See dusting chart below]

3. Feeding & Supplementing ADULT leopard geckos ~ Feed 2x per week.

• Mondays ~ feed (no dusting)
• Thursdays ~ feed & dust prey with Repashy's Calcium Plus (all in one) multivitamins

\/ \/ \/


R = Repashy's Calcium Plus, Cc = pure precipitated calcium carbonate (without vitamin D3)

Week 1 Repashy dusting (for JUVENILES & HATCHLINGS):
M-------T-------W------Th-------F-------Sat-------Sun
............R...........................................R...................


Week 2 Repashy dusting (for JUVENILES & HATCHLINGS):
M-------T-------W------Th-------F-------Sat-------Sun
..................................R..........................................​

-----> For hatchlings 0-2 months old & any slow-growing leopard geckos under ~6 grams: Aliza also places a bottle cap of pure precipitated calcium carbonate (without vitamin D3) in the cage 24/7.

 

[bubbanarf]

Yes, I have observed all of my geckos sticking part of a tail or a foot or even the entire the lower halves of their bodies (with their heads in the shade) out into the UVB since I have installed the lights.

Do you guys have a recommendation for a multivitamin supplement with Vitamin A but NO Vit D3?

 

[bubbanarf]

The vet's thoughts were that Hermie's kidney failure was due to either

1.) the infection which is also present

2.) organ failure due to age


I am bringing Hermie back in to the vet tomorrow for another blood draw and more blood tests to see how his white blood cells are looking (they were dark and shrunken due to the potential presence of the infection) and if his uric acid level has dropped at all after the antibiotics and almost two weeks of allopurinol.


My other two remaining leopard geckos (Esper and Spot) have been under the same care as Hermie and are older. (not exactly sure on age, they could be 12-15 years old, got the other two as adults and have had them for 10 years in my care) I also have a crested gecko, Lancelot, who is 10 years old.

The other two leopard geckos are fat and healthy and have not shown any signs of problems. Perhaps Hermie was genetically prone to kidney problems or the gout?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Yes, I have observed all of my geckos sticking part of a tail or a foot or even the entire the lower halves of their bodies (with their heads in the shade) out into the UVB since I have installed the lights.

Do you guys have a recommendation for a multivitamin supplement with Vitamin A but NO Vit D3?

That all your leos are absorbing UVB from Arcadia's ShadeDweller on some body part is awesome!

This Zoo Med Reptivite multivitamins without D3 contains vitamin A acetate (retinol). Zoo Med's supplements also contain about half as much vitamin D3 when compared to Repashy's Calcium Plus multivitamins. Please ask Hermie's vet before you switch.

​

Fran Baines, DVM (& lighting guru on Facebook's Reptile Lighting group) recommends a backup dose of a vitamin D3 containing supplement @ 1 feeding per month even when leos utilize UVB from great sources like Arcadia's Shade Dweller or Zoo Med's Reptisun lights.

These links include comparisons on D3 levels between Zoo Med products and Repashy products. Reptivite (with or without D3) only contains vitamin A acetate (retinol). Repashy's Calcium Plus multivitamins contain both pre-formed vitamin A (retinol) and pro-formed vitamin A (beta carotene). A wee amount of retinol is necessary in order to activate beta carotene.

1. For link 24 click: Calcium powders with D3: Zoo Med, Rep-Cal, Fluker, Exo Terra, + others
2. For link 77 click: Gecko Multivitamins

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

The vet's thoughts were that Hermie's kidney failure was due to either

1.) the infection which is also present

2.) organ failure due to age


I am bringing Hermie back in to the vet tomorrow for another blood draw and more blood tests to see how his white blood cells are looking (they were dark and shrunken due to the potential presence of the infection) and if his uric acid level has dropped at all after the antibiotics and almost two weeks of allopurinol.


My other two remaining leopard geckos (Esper and Spot) have been under the same care as Hermie and are older. (not exactly sure on age, they could be 12-15 years old, got the other two as adults and have had them for 10 years in my care) I also have a crested gecko, Lancelot, who is 10 years old.

The other two leopard geckos are fat and healthy and have not shown any signs of problems. Perhaps Hermie was genetically prone to kidney problems or the gout?

There is a retired female leo breeder in Europe who's in her mid-30s!

What type diet do you feed the dubia (?) roaches?

 

[bubbanarf]

I feed my dubia roaches a variety of things, including a mix of wheat germ, different types of oatmeal, wheat bran flakes (the bottoms of my cereal bags that get mushed up), carrots, and sometimes things like apples or potatoes or sweet potatoes (if if I have peels or cores or other pieces of them for some reason). Their water source is carrots and hydrated water crystals.

 

[bubbanarf]

UPDATE: Hermie is back at the vet for another blood draw to see if the infection cleared up and if his uric acid levels are changing at all. He has still not shed, though he does have a warm humid hide now and has been resting in it the majority of his time. His head is pretty white, but I can definitely tell he's sick, because the skin is not fully separating from his body like it normally does. He has never had a problem shed like this before. I have soaked him and removed some areas, but only a little at at time. The skin is still reluctant to come off and is sticky in some areas.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Did you see my post 11 on this thread? I shared info regarding a multivitamin that contains NO vitamin D3.

I continue to read significant cautions about water crystals from very experienced keepers. Dehydrated water crystals have been found in the guts of deceased animals. Instead I use a couple layers of moist paper towels to provide moisture for crickets and dubia.

Please remove apple core seeds when feeding those scraps to your bugs or worms!

Please read the following link. I wrote it for Geckos Unlimited several years ago.

For link 98 click: Common Mealworm & Superworm Dry Diets & Beddings -- Use something else!​

#6---Gutload Ingredients for Bugs & Worms......thanks to Olimpia -- August 2013
"A commercial gut loading food like Bug Burger or Superload (both by Repashy), Cricket Crack, Dinofuel, etc. is going to make your life easier AND provide a nutritious diet to your crickets at the same time. Avoid Fluker's gutloads, as they are super feeble in their formulas."

"If you opt for making your own gutload at home, here is a list of great ingredients to use:
Best: mustard greens, turnip greens, dandelion flowers & leaves, collard greens, escarole lettuce, papaya, watercress, and alfalfa.
Good: sweet potato, carrots, oranges, mango, butternut squash, kale, apples, beet greens, blackberries, bok choy, and green beans.
Dry food: bee pollen, organic non-salted sunflower seeds, spirulina, dried seaweed, flax seed, and organic non-salted almonds.
Avoid as much as possible: potatoes, cabbage, iceberg lettuce, romaine lettuce, spinach, broccoli, tomatoes, corn, grains, beans, oats, bread, cereal, meat, eggs, dog food, cat food, fish food, canned or dead insects, vertebrates."

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Here's a link from my leo caresheet that may help Hermie.

For link 111 click: Repashy's Calcium Plus: vitamin D content + forms of vitamin D......Hilde​

 

[bubbanarf]

Thank you, Elizabeth, for all the info and suggestions. It means a lot to me that people on here care enough to take the time to respond to my inquiries. I did see your recommendations and info for supplements without D3.

And I had not seen any warnings about using water crystals for feeder bugs, so thank you for that warning as well!

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thank you, Elizabeth, for all the info and suggestions. It means a lot to me that people on here care enough to take the time to respond to my inquiries. I did see your recommendations and info for supplements without D3.

And I had not seen any warnings about using water crystals for feeder bugs, so thank you for that warning as well!

You're very welcome. I'm glad these things are valuable for you, Hermie, and your other two leos.