2nd Leo, 1st time raising baby

[NeoLeo87]

Hello users,

I recently introduced myself to the forum http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...introduction/77895-leo-owner-new-orleans.html

I have been raising an adult male Leo for 10 years...but this newest Leo is my first baby! I don't know the sex yet, but that doesn't concern me. From their size (about 3-4 inches in length I believe) I'm guessing the baby is about a month old. I bought it from Petco just yesterday (exactly 10 hours ago from this post). While I will be making changes to his habitat this weekend, and have many more questions moving forward, I would like to pose a few right now.

Three most crucial questions:
1 - What are proper day/night temperatures for my new baby leo? Right now, the thermometer on the tank wall near his bulb is telling me that his night bulb is putting the warm side around 95-98 degrees F. Is this too hot?
2 - How many crickets should babies be eating per night? And is stretching the 15 minute feeding period safe? Having not known how many he ate at the pet store before purchasing him, I fed the baby two small crickets, then two more an hour later, then another one a few hours later because his behavior made me wonder if he was still hungry. He's been voracious and eager to hunt, but I don't know when enough is enough for babies... I don't want to overfeed or underfeed!
3 - Is there anything else the baby/juvie leo needs for their diet and/or living situation that I have neglected?
For your consideration, I have posted housing specs on both tanks for my leo's below (with pictures!), so that you all may have a better idea of what the baby is working with, in comparison to the adult.

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Gabby – adult “snow mack” leopard gecko, 11-15 years old
Gabby’s tank – 30” length, 12” width, 12” height
- Substrate: half sand, half carpet (say what you will about sand, Gabby has been fine for the last 10 years with it)
- Two hides – one cool side (with damp paper towel sometimes), one warm side
- Water dish at top of the cool hide
- Decorations: plastic log, plastic ferns, and plastic cactus
- Diet: Eats 2 adult crickets each night – gut loaded and powdered calcium w/D3
- Heating: One daytime and one red night time bulb, set with timers (no underheating)
- Additional info: Corner of his carpet is cut out to wash and replace, because that’s his “bathroom.” He knows where to poop every time!


Unnamed baby/juvie “tangerine” leopard gecko, Few weeks-1 or 2 months old
Juvie/baby gecko’s tank – 16” length, 9” width, 10” height
- Substrate: carpet
- One hide (placed below the lights)
- Water dish at top of the hide
- Decorations: Plastic ferns
- Diet: Eats 5-??? smaller crickets each night – gut loaded and powdered calcium w/D3
- Heating: One daytime and one red night time bulb (both 60W), set with timers (no underheating)
- Additional info: Juvie has a new tail (probably lost previous tail in a fight at Petco) and is slowly growing it back. His pictures can be found in the introduction thread I linked at top of this post.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm ready and willing to hear out anyone's advice! I want this new addition to the family to live as healthy and happy as my adult does.

 

[LEOPARD1]

Baby:

Hot Side = 88-91degrees..yes its too hot.

Food= As many as it can eat in 10-15 minutes. Leopard Geckos aren't known for "gorgeing" they tend to know their limit my babies have seemed to know theirs.

Get rid of the lights and get an under tank heater. I use flukers, they are re-usable. Use it on one side of the enclosure to be your warm/hot side. Geckos need belly heat to digest prey.

Try tile or Duck Brand Shelf Liner. Geckos lose teeth and nails in reptile carpet.

I cant visualize your dimensions in my head. ATLEAST 10 gallon for a baby.

ATLEAST two hides a cool hide on the cool side and a warm/humid hide on the hot/warm side over the UTH. Google "Humid hide for Leopard Gecko".

Water dish on ground on cool side.

I dont dust my prey items so I can't give you advice there. Just be frugal with how much D3 you use. I leave a dish of vionate and osteform ratio 1:3.

I am on my phone so I can't tackle the adult. I would do the same with the adult including any changes I made to your babies set-up. Sand can be used successfully depending on grain size and only for Adults. Why chance impaction? Get rid of it.

Here's my set-up for an Adult and could be used for a baby/juvenile.

My thumb hurts

 

[kholtme]

I recommend a 20 gallon long tank for the minimal of 1 leopard gecko. I have one leopard in a 40 gallon breeder tank and love it. The reason for a bigger tank is, you need the heat gradient to be 88-91 on the warm side, and a cool side of around 72 ish. You also need a uth that cover 1/3 to 1/2 of the tank. This is important along with a bigger tank because you will need room for 3 hides (1 WARM moist, one warm dry, one cool dry), and then any other decorations that you want. The 2 warm hides need to be above your uth. I like using tile as a substrate, and as leopard@1 said, why chance it? I say this for your baby, if i were you i would not be that concerned with the ten year old on sand, since its been that way for life. (you could still change to rough surfaced tile if you wanted).

Under tank heaters (uth) are very important. Leopard geckos dont bask, they get their heat from the bellies. Please consider changing the way you heat. As for the lights, you could still use them to keep warm side air temp around 78ish, but air temp should not exceed 85. I like CHE (ceramic heat emitter) because they produce no light but great heat.

 

[acpart]

I do think it's OK to have a young hatchling in a smaller enclosure until it gets bigger. It's also best to measure the floor on the hot side (which should be in the low 90's as mentioned) as opposed to the air. The under tank heater (with a thermostat or rheostat to keep it from getting too hot) is a good idea as well. The only thing I've been providing to my young hatchlings that I don't provide for the adults is calcium without D3 in the cage. I wasn't doing it at the beginning of this season, noticed that a few of the babies seemed to have some early signs of MBD, added the calcium and everyone recovered. Currently the hatchlings I still have for sale are 5-8 months old so I don't have the calcium anymore.

Aliza

 

[kholtme]

I do think it's OK to have a young hatchling in a smaller enclosure until it gets bigger. It's also best to measure the floor on the hot side (which should be in the low 90's as mentioned) as opposed to the air. The under tank heater (with a thermostat or rheostat to keep it from getting too hot) is a good idea as well. The only thing I've been providing to my young hatchlings that I don't provide for the adults is calcium without D3 in the cage. I wasn't doing it at the beginning of this season, noticed that a few of the babies seemed to have some early signs of MBD, added the calcium and everyone recovered. Currently the hatchlings I still have for sale are 5-8 months old so I don't have the calcium anymore.

Aliza

Glad you caught the signs of MBD before anything to serious happened. I assume you still dust while feeding? because for the best results of calcium there needs to be digestion of food with the calcium. I dont have any supplements in my cage, and dont plan too (My gecko is an adult, got him at 1 year old). I just want to know your thoughts on supplements in the cage dealing with digestion.

 

[kholtme]

Also i agree that younger geckos could thrive in smaller cages, but i believe the one NeoLeo87 has is too small for the baby. I also just suggested the 20 gallon long tank now, that way there is no need to upgrade when the leopard gecko gets older. I like the idea of buying something once and never having to upgrade if possible, especially if you didnt plan to start small and upgrade in the future.

 

[LEOPARD1]

Its funny how hardy leopard geckos are. With so many ways to supplement directly or indirectly or not at all they still seem to thrive in many cases ( not all).

 

[acpart]

I used to keep calcium without D3 in all my geckos' cages when I was supplementing with Reptivite and herptivite. Now that I'm using Repashy Calcium plus (since 2009) I generally don't keep any calcium in the cage and I dust feeders every other feeding. I don't have any particular thoughts or knowledge on supplements and digestion, but prefer that the geckos get small amounts of supplement with their meal. I am considering, though, putting some calcium without D3 in the cages of the breeding females. During the past few years I have had an occasional female get very skinny and wobbly after laying several clutches of eggs and am wondering if she would have done better to have more access to calcium (needless to say, these females were immediately retired as breeders).

Aliza

 

[LEOPARD1]

I keep vionate and osteoform in the enclosure if my memory serves me correctly that means I have a supply of D3 in her enclosure. I think a little plain calcium wouldn't hurt. IMO

 

[majahawt]

A lot of people do recommend keeping some plain calcium in the tank when there are signs of MBD or for egg-laying females. I keep plain calcium in both tanks, for one because she's still growing and for the other because he was my first gecko and I had accidentally bought reptivite instead of calcium so he was showing early signs of MBD. We caught it early enough to reverse it but we still sometimes see him lapping up a little calcium with great gusto

 

[LEOPARD1]

I took the osteoform and vionate away from my gecko for 2 weeks after reading how "terrible" it was. After re-introducing the combination I never had seen my gecko move so fast. Its amazing that they will take a few licks and walk away. Total control.

Dusting works just as well and if you want to have complete control of the amount and times the LG receives various supplements due to any worries, its the way to go.

 

[NeoLeo87]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback!

I've attached a picture of the baby's new home. He now has a 15 gallon tank, a cool hide (with a water dish in the top), a warm hide (which I constructed out of a box, because the plastic one I bought at Petco had paint flaking off it... Good thing I didn't use it!), and various decorations to provide shade. I also flip the reptile carpet, because the underside seems to be more compact, with less chance of fabric puffing up and getting toes caught in them.


The baby also has a stand to elevate the bulbs to different heights, in case temperature needs adjusted, and a Zoo Med UTH pad (for a 10 gallon tank) beneath the tank on the warm hide side.

The baby (which I have discovered is about 3-4 months old) just had a big feast of 7 or so crickets. Now he's chilling on his log, watching me type.

I have three new questions concerning me now...

1 - When feeding my baby, how often do his crickets need dusted? I have a UVA day bulb, but no UVB, so to compensate I'm using Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3. My adult has always had his crickets dusted in this, and it works great for him. However, I don't know how often a little 3-4 month old needs it.

2 - What is the best way to feed mealworms to my gecko? My adult has never been interested in them, now I want to see if my baby is. When I put a few in front of the baby, he will stalk them a few feet, sniff them, and leave them be...does this mean mealworms just aren't his/her thing? For now, I put about 8 mini mealworms in his glass bowl (you can see in the picture below) in the hopes he sees them and wants them.

3 - What precautions should be taken when using both UTH under a tank, and light bulbs directly above? The directions for this UTH said not to have any light source above, but can that be helped if I adjust the light higher? I plan on getting a thermostat soon as I can (I heard Hydrofarm MTPRTC are good).

 

[LEOPARD1]

I dont dust food items. I place a small dish of Vionate and Osteoform (You decide ratio) for the Gecko. Look into it. You'll see differing opinions. I use a dish of Vionate and Osteoform and the Gecko knows how much it needs. Try it.

Put Mealworms preferably in a transparent dish (so the Gecko can see movement) that is at least 3/4" high for Regular Mealworms. Most Geckos get the idea. If that Kidney Dish you have in your enclosure is the "small" type it should work fine. I think the height is sufficient if the dimensions I remember are correct. Introduce mealworms at dusk or dawn when the Gecko is most active. Some people leave them in over night because Leopard Geckos are Nocturnal but vary its diet widely. I used Dubias and Mealworms and when I feel a little groovy order HornWorms.

I dont use light bulbs, unless the room is dark then use an regular 'ole 15 watt lightbulb to mimic daylight if not and you still insist on a secondary source of heat get a CHE. Leopard Geckos dont bask. I would use a proper sized UTH for the enclosure look at past responces for correct temps for cold and hot side, warm humid side (Elizabeth Freers Caresheet is the best overall "cant F it up if you try" Caresheet. I use a Flukers Heat Mat because it maintains at 90-100 degrees and is re-usable. You will also need a thermostat/rheostat for your UTH unless you get some wimpy ultratherm or intelitemp heat pad (although some people insist they need a regulating device). Lights at night especially can throw your Geckos natural balance off. Especially colored ones. If you have access to sufficient room light or window light (during the day) try using that. I dont think at this point you want to research photoperiods and sun movement in the tribal regions of Pakistan or Islamabad for that matter. Maybe let the Gecko get used to your regions times of Dawn, Dusk, Night and in between.

 

[kholtme]

The new tank looks much better
Your questions
1. I dont use any uv lights at all. leopards dont bask, and during the day they are usually hiding, so it really isnt doing anything. If someone were using uv lights, the minimum tanks size is 4 feet or longer, so they gecko can chose to get in and out of the uv. I dont know much about UV, but if i were you i would just ditch it all together, if you really wanted it you should research more. I dont know much about them and i dont care to know much about it because it is not needed for leopard geckos, and many leopard geckos live a full life without it. I dust my food using these products and this method.

Lightly dust crickets, Blaptica dubia, and mealworms with Zoo Med's supplements like this:

Monday - lightly dust with Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamin withOUT D3
Wednesday - lightly dust with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3
Saturday - lightly dust with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3


Use the Reptivite multivitamin sparingly! The directions on both containers suggest dusting according to your gecko's weight.

Recommend feeding crickets, Blaptica dubia, and mealworms Albers' All Purpose Poultry Feed, Purina Layena Sunfresh Crumbles, or Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food all 24/7 with added collard greens and dandelion flowers/greens.

2. It is kind of just up to you and experimenting because every gecko is different. My leopard will only go after food that is moving, so if your mealworms arent wiggling around, that could be why it is uninterested. Or it may just not like them. Some geckos can be picky eaters.

3. The hyrdofarm thermostat is great! its the one i use. I highly recommend getting it for both geckos. Also, i use a che in a 10 inch dome above the uth. The che doesnt put off any light which i feel is best. Leopard geckos can see the red lights. I recommend using an che and keeping air temp (measured 4 inches above ground) on the warm side around 78 degrees. As long as the air temps dont fall below 67 degrees or exceed 85 degrees you should be good. You can use a lamp dimmer to adjust the over head heating. I leave my che on 24/7, but some turn them off at night.

 

[NeoLeo87]

Lightly dust crickets, Blaptica dubia, and mealworms with Zoo Med's supplements like this:

Monday - lightly dust with Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamin withOUT D3
Wednesday - lightly dust with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3
Saturday - lightly dust with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3


Use the Reptivite multivitamin sparingly! The directions on both containers suggest dusting according to your gecko's weight.

I know this is quoted from Elizabeth's care sheet, but it doesn't fully answer my concerns regarding how much calcium a 4 month old should be given weekly, nor does it specify what "sparingly" means for multivitamins. Is it up to the owner to guess the amount? Or do we mix it in at a certain ratio with the above schedule of calcium?

And does the same apply to RepCal's Herptivite w/ beta carotene, and phosphorus-free calcium with D3? They are not Zoo Med products, but I haven't seen many talk about this.

How would one go about this supplement amount for such a tiny leo?

 

[acpart]

I don't think anyone knows exactly how much is enough and how much is too much. If you're dusting, there's a relatively small amount on each feeder (and if the feeder doesn't get eaten soon, it will clean the dust off anyway). I think if you follow Elizabeth's schedule (or mine: dust every other feeding with Repashy calcium plus) you should be OK.

Aliza

 

[NeoLeo87]

I don't think anyone knows exactly how much is enough and how much is too much.

Surely someone knows. If there's a system to how much calcium a gecko should receive based on weight, the same should be applied to other supplements. I find it hard to believe there isn't a more definite answer from professional owners and breeders.

I think if you follow Elizabeth's schedule (or mine: dust every other feeding with Repashy calcium plus) you should be OK.

But...I just quoted Elizabeth's care sheet, because it's the root of my questions in the first place.

I appreciate the input, but this does not answer the questions I've just posed.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback!
......

The baby also has a stand to elevate the bulbs to different heights, in case temperature needs adjusted, and a Zoo Med UTH pad (for a 10 gallon tank) beneath the tank on the warm hide side.

The baby (which I have discovered is about 3-4 months old) just had a big feast of 7 or so crickets. Now he's chilling on his log, watching me type.

I have three new questions concerning me now...

1 - When feeding my baby, how often do his crickets need dusted? I have a UVA day bulb, but no UVB, so to compensate I'm using Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3. My adult has always had his crickets dusted in this, and it works great for him. However, I don't know how often a little 3-4 month old needs it.

......

I know this is quoted from Elizabeth's care sheet, but it doesn't fully answer my concerns regarding how much calcium a 4 month old should be given weekly, nor does it specify what "sparingly" means for multivitamins. Is it up to the owner to guess the amount? Or do we mix it in at a certain ratio with the above schedule of calcium?

And does the same apply to RepCal's Herptivite w/ beta carotene, and phosphorus-free calcium with D3? They are not Zoo Med products, but I haven't seen many talk about this.

How would one go about this supplement amount for such a tiny leo?

Surely someone knows. If there's a system to how much calcium a gecko should receive based on weight, the same should be applied to other supplements. I find it hard to believe there isn't a more definite answer from professional owners and breeders.

But...I just quoted Elizabeth's care sheet, because it's the root of my questions in the first place.

I appreciate the input, but this does not answer the questions I've just posed.

Several of your questions have already been addressed.

My "above schedule" does include BOTH Reptivite and Repti Calcium with D3. Zoo Med's recs are located on each container. What I recommend is a little different. They're based upon my gecko experiences of 26+ years.

Because of lack of funding definitive research has been scarce.

I don't recommend RepCal's Calcium with D3 because it contains huge amounts of D3 per "serving". (If you find post #24 immediately following the Basic Leo Guidelines in my caresheet you'll find a comparison of some major brands.)

I don't recommend RepCal's Herpetivite multivitamin because it contains vitamin A in the form of beta carotene. Research has shown that chameleons do not absorb beta carotene.

Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamin contains vitamin A acetate, a more readily available form. Even though Reptivite does contain phosphorus, the recommended amount of this multivitamin per week (by my reptile vet) is only a tiny pinch. In addition, the directions on the container suggest light dusting by the gecko's weight.

sparingly = a tiny pinch

Many leo keepers use one of these three dry diets for their bugs and worms.

• Albers' All Purpose Poultry Feed
• Purina Layena Sunfresh Crumbles
• Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food

You've already seen this:

Lightly dust crickets, Blaptica dubia, and mealworms with Zoo Med's supplements like this:
Monday - lightly dust with Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamin withOUT D3
Wednesday - lightly dust with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3
Saturday - lightly dust with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3

Use the Reptivite multivitamin sparingly! The directions on both containers suggest dusting according to your gecko's weight.

I recommend feeding crickets, Blaptica dubia, and mealworms Albers' All Purpose Poultry Feed, Purina Layena Sunfresh Crumbles, or Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food all 24/7 with added collard greens and dandelion flowers/greens. If you feed any of the dry diets I recommend above, chances are that you'll be able to reduce the powdered supplement schedule.

The easiest way I've found to dust is via the "swirl" method. Take a tallish plastic container, add some powder, add bugs or worms, swirl to coat, then feed off.

I do not recommend leaving any powdered supplement in the cage.

 

[NeoLeo87]

Firstly, thanks for the detailed response! It helped clear up a lot of my thoughts on supplements. However, I would really like to bring to your attention a BIG concern I now have regarding the multivitamins and how I used them...

Even though Reptivite does contain phosphorus, the recommended amount of this multivitamin per week (by my reptile vet) is only a tiny pinch.

sparingly = a tiny pinch

This has me worried. Rushing in like a fool, I dusted crickets for both my adult leo and my baby leo with WAY more than a "pinch" of this (I have only done this once a week, over 2 weeks now). On top of that, my adult has never had multivitamin supplement until now. He's been rather lethargic as of the last couple weeks, and has not eaten in 6 days, though he has defecated.

My question to you, Elizabeth, is as follows: Is a heavy dosage of Herptivite harmful? And if so, how much should I worry if this has affected my adult leo?

Apologies in advance if this thread is getting off topic. I can move it to a private message or personal discussion if need be.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Firstly, thanks for the detailed response! It helped clear up a lot of my thoughts on supplements. However, I would really like to bring to your attention a BIG concern I now have regarding the multivitamins and how I used them...



This has me worried. Rushing in like a fool, I dusted crickets for both my adult leo and my baby leo with WAY more than a "pinch" of this (I have only done this once a week, over 2 weeks now). On top of that, my adult has never had multivitamin supplement until now. He's been rather lethargic as of the last couple weeks, and has not eaten in 6 days, though he has defecated.

My question to you, Elizabeth, is as follows: Is a heavy dosage of Herptivite harmful? And if so, how much should I worry if this has affected my adult leo?

Apologies in advance if this thread is getting off topic. I can move it to a private message or personal discussion if need be.

You're welcome. No sense continuing via PM. The PM format gets truncated quickly; there is no opportunity for others to offer feedback.

So are you using Herptivite or Reptivite? Both are quite different. Herptivite contains no vitamin A acetate. Did you see my comments in the last post?

All you can do is go from here. If there is no A acetate or D3 in the food you currently feed your crickets, that's a reason not to worry about excess Herptivite/Reptivite for such a short time. Just don't use any Herptivite/Reptivite for a couple weeks.

Get plain Reptivite instead of Herptivite and Repti Calcium with D3.

What are you feeding your crickets and any worms?