Tokay Morphs...
- Thread starter Riverside Reptiles
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Riverside Reptiles
Administrator (HMFIC)
I don't know that I'd say that it's absolutely never been done. It's not been done to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean that nobody has ever tried it. It just means that the results haven't been made public.Tokay morphs are not exactly "new". People have been messing with them for 20 years or so. It just happens that now, people happen to be taking it a bit more seriously.
As for the powder blue morph, there's a lot of powder blues out there that were WC. Morgan's animals are what we see most often in the market, but people have been working with and breeding them for quite a while. WC specimens of powder blues used to be fairly common. In this day and age where it's assumed that everyone is online and everyone participates in forums and FB groups, it's important to remember that there are still many keepers/breeders that simply don't spend much (if any) time on the internet.
As for the powder blue morph, there's a lot of powder blues out there that were WC. Morgan's animals are what we see most often in the market, but people have been working with and breeding them for quite a while. WC specimens of powder blues used to be fairly common. In this day and age where it's assumed that everyone is online and everyone participates in forums and FB groups, it's important to remember that there are still many keepers/breeders that simply don't spend much (if any) time on the internet.
Kita
New member
I know, you were the one I was quoting because you would be one to know what information has actually been shared since you are one more people communicate with. As someone that has been actively searching for PB lines other than Morgan's for over a two years, they are not easy to find.
billewicz
New member
Regardless were you get them, I just think working with a pair of compatible morphs is going to be much more rewarding than going down the very long road with hets.
billewicz
New member
I've probably done it more than a few times without really paying attention to the pairing. Of the hundreds of imports that I brought in, I resold almost all of the patternless with exception of a couple or three pair of the 'powdered' and some olive.
Please remember that my focus is on the pied/calico, Super Red and Albino strains. We were getting so many powdered Tokay in, I did not have the room or interest in breeding something that had been proven out.
Also, some of what I thought were Powder Blue Tokay turned out to be Blue Headed Greens instead. They do not always show their blue heads. I've had what could be called Powdered Greens as well.
I have breed BHG's to PB's and Olive together without any focus on what each one might truly be other than patternless. They all produced patternless offspring. I'm holding most of the females for breeding stock because the patternless, especially Olive, get really big and robust. Of all the color morphs, they tend to be able to produce more eggs a year than any other type and less prone to kidney failure.
I'm much more interested in their genetics as it relates to egg production and reproduction health of the females than I am in their color.
I'm hoping Ethan is right in that many Tokay owners and breeders do not participate in online forums. We sold hundreds of PB's and PHG's and it would be a shame if most of them never contributed to the captive breed population in the US.
NatureCoastReptiles
New member
Hello...I have a male blue headed green and female normals...Does anyone out there know if will have a chance of getting any babies with visuals? Also, any ideas for which morph of male I should start looking for when the babies from this group are ready?
billewicz
New member
Hello and welcome to the wonderful world of Tokay enthusiasts here on GU.
Your BHG male is a simple recessive patternless gene, so when bred to normals you will have all normal looking offspring that are het for patternless. Meaning, if they were ever bred to another patternless you'd have a 50% chance of throwing patternless and 50% chance they would be normal looking hets.
Since we're on basic genetics 101, Your offspring will be "heterozygous", "hets" for short. These offspring will carry the genetic mutation for patternless but still look like a normal Tokay.
(As a side note to other breeders, patternless to normal breedings seem to create a green aberrant looking Tokay instead of the usual gray. There has not been enough captive breeding to prove this out, but this might be a good marker for the hets. There was a rumor several years ago that some patternless where actually co-dominant in nature. This could prove to be true as well.)
What to get to pair with your het prodigy. It depends on what sex you get out of your offspring. Frankly, I'd get a BHG female a.s.a.p. so that next year you could breed her directly to the visual male. Then you would have 100% visuals almost two years sooner than raising up your hets and another visual. It will take 18 months to 2 years to get your females up to size for breeding.
So, for more on how to figure out what begets what when bred together, the use of Punnett Squares will held you figure that out. (I'm going to owe Keven royalties soon for the use of his great work on describing how P Squares work.) Here is his link: New England Reptile Distributors, designer Ball Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and much more!
Also, since we've answered this same question three times in the past week, and since you're new to this forum, you get this one 'free'. We invite you to spend some time searching through all the old posts here to answer just about every question about Tokay one could ask.
If you really can't find answer, just ask. And again welcome to the Forums.
All the best,
Michael's Tokay Hoard: www.billewicz.com
Your BHG male is a simple recessive patternless gene, so when bred to normals you will have all normal looking offspring that are het for patternless. Meaning, if they were ever bred to another patternless you'd have a 50% chance of throwing patternless and 50% chance they would be normal looking hets.
Since we're on basic genetics 101, Your offspring will be "heterozygous", "hets" for short. These offspring will carry the genetic mutation for patternless but still look like a normal Tokay.
(As a side note to other breeders, patternless to normal breedings seem to create a green aberrant looking Tokay instead of the usual gray. There has not been enough captive breeding to prove this out, but this might be a good marker for the hets. There was a rumor several years ago that some patternless where actually co-dominant in nature. This could prove to be true as well.)
What to get to pair with your het prodigy. It depends on what sex you get out of your offspring. Frankly, I'd get a BHG female a.s.a.p. so that next year you could breed her directly to the visual male. Then you would have 100% visuals almost two years sooner than raising up your hets and another visual. It will take 18 months to 2 years to get your females up to size for breeding.
So, for more on how to figure out what begets what when bred together, the use of Punnett Squares will held you figure that out. (I'm going to owe Keven royalties soon for the use of his great work on describing how P Squares work.) Here is his link: New England Reptile Distributors, designer Ball Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and much more!
Also, since we've answered this same question three times in the past week, and since you're new to this forum, you get this one 'free'. We invite you to spend some time searching through all the old posts here to answer just about every question about Tokay one could ask.
If you really can't find answer, just ask. And again welcome to the Forums.
All the best,
Michael's Tokay Hoard: www.billewicz.com
Marauderhex
New member
Ok, one quick thing, because as a biologist it infuriates me every time I see it; you cannot have 100% heterozygous ANYTHING it's a misnomer for homozygous, as true 100% het would refer to what reptile enthusiasts refer to as 50% het.
Edit: 100% heterozygous would mean that the gene is heterozygous at every allele, which is also not what it's intended to represent.
Edit: 100% heterozygous would mean that the gene is heterozygous at every allele, which is also not what it's intended to represent.
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billewicz
New member
The BHG overe here in Europe are co dom Michael.
What do the offspring look like when breeding a BHG to a normal?
billewicz
New member
Ok, but this forum does not deal on that level of scientific specifics. And, so far, I have not found a general definition that makes the claim that every allele is different. Only that the alleles are different at a given chromosomal loci.
Can we agree that for the context of the casual reptile hobbyist, these questions are targeted to only the genetic mutations that change the outward appearance of the animal? And that there is little or no concern for most other mutations or genetic traits other than maybe size?
For the sake of simplicity I understand the definition of homozygous as having identical alleles at corresponding chromosomal loci. Translation; The genetic 'information'/trait that determines the animals' outward color is located on the same position within the chromosome from both it's mother and father.
For the sake of simplicity, I'll stay with a simple recessive genetic trait for the rest of this conversation.
My understanding of heterozygous is having dissimilar alleles at corresponding chromosomal loci. I further limit this understanding to only the alleles that control color and their locus. Translation; The pair of genes that determine color are different from each other at that location. In the example of a simple recessive trait Albinism, one parent is visual for that trait and passed that gene on to it's prodigy but the other parent was normal, or wild type in coloration.
In this pairing the use of a Punnett Square shows us that all the offspring will look normal but they all will carry the albino gene. In this oversimplified language, we would call these 100% heterozygous for that specific trait, Albinism.
Again, in this context, does this not work for you? What am I missing, thanks.
Marauderhex
New member
Michael, that post works beautifully, I was simply stating that it's something that drives me, as a biologist crazy. As for you're understanding of how the terms actually work, you have it right. The 100% het thing relating to every allele is that if you have an animal that is 100% heterozygous, then it would not have any homozygous traits, hence the term 100% or fully heterozygous.
Riverside Reptiles
Administrator (HMFIC)
Obviously, in the hobby, 100% het is meant to represent that 100% of the offspring will be het for the trait.
That has been used literally for decades and I don't see it going anywhere any time soon.
No need to confuse the masses any more than they already are!
That has been used literally for decades and I don't see it going anywhere any time soon.
No need to confuse the masses any more than they already are!
billewicz
New member
YeeeHaaaw to dat my Brother!!!
Marauderhex
New member
While I can appreciate that it's been around for a while, I just wish people had learned the correct terminology. People thought the earth was flat for hundreds of years, yet we eventually brought them around to the scientific fact that the earth is an imperfect sphere.
Liddle
New member
actually its an oblate spheroid...=)
billewicz
New member
Here we go! LOL!!! "And there off ...":rofl:
Marauderhex
New member
That's what I meant by imperfect sphere, I just didn't have the terminology for it. For that I thank you.