Tokay Morphs...
- Thread starter Riverside Reptiles
- Start date
Liddle
New member
lol i feed my tokays pinkies. JK haha. well i do on their birthdays lol. im such a lame
Riverside Reptiles
Administrator (HMFIC)
The fact is though that 100% of the offspring would be het. So really, the terminology is not incorrect. It's not an incorrect belief. What you're talking about is semantics really. It's not a case of people believing that something false is true. It's just that instead of everyone always saying, "100% of the offspring are het"
it's been shortened to "100% het.". It's a thing of simple convenience. Nobody's trying to make something true that isn't. Just trying to get people to understand what "het" means is often task enough without complicating it even more. The vast majority of the people in this hobby are not scientists (or even close to it). When I see people putting little dresses and sweaters on their geckos, the last thing I'm going to try to do is educate them on proper scientific terminology!
billewicz
New member
... The vast majority of the people in this hobby are not scientists (or even close to it). When I see people putting little dresses and sweaters on their geckos, the last thing I'm going to try to do is educate them on proper scientific terminology!
You mean like this Chuckie, ops I mean Sauromalus obesus? ;-);-);-)
Marauderhex
New member
My next response to this only gets us further away from the topic of tokay morphs, which is what this thread is about, so I'll save it for another time. I'll just say that if people would pay attention in basic biology, maybe we wouldn't have to deal with some of the problems that we do today.
billewicz
New member
I've been willing to go down this sideline because basic biology and a simple understanding of genetics all tie into the Tokay morph topic. As long as hobbyist do not understanding these basic principles, we will keep seeing forum inquires asking what one might get if you breed A to B.
As you know, the interesting thing about Tokay is that wild caught imported morphs can carry multiple genes that determine their outward look and coloration. So, in a lot of cases, we still don't know the answer.
I find this lack of scientific understanding exasperated by the lack of journals and scientific publications 'translated' to common terms and explanations. Comprehending the formal parlance of such work is past the scope of most casual Tokay enthusiasts.
As you know, the interesting thing about Tokay is that wild caught imported morphs can carry multiple genes that determine their outward look and coloration. So, in a lot of cases, we still don't know the answer.
I find this lack of scientific understanding exasperated by the lack of journals and scientific publications 'translated' to common terms and explanations. Comprehending the formal parlance of such work is past the scope of most casual Tokay enthusiasts.
Marauderhex
New member
You know, Michael, a co-worker and I were just discussing this yesterday morning. We wish that more journals were published in common prose and the cost reduced. As it stands now, a one year subscription to Nature, argueably the best biology journal out there, costs in the realm of $200.00, and the topics are full of jargon that the layman couldn't understand without a heavy dose of google-ing.
billewicz
New member
Even the Catholic Church 'modernized' their mass to the native tongue over 40 years ago from Latin. It generated far more interest in the proceedings for the average layman.
ciliatus
New member
Ok, since there havent been pictures of tokay morphs for quite a while i figured its about time ....
first a female that i bought really skinny in Hamm. She is building up nice.
And now some pics of my "high white" calico (or name it progressive pied) pair, that becomes less and less high white.
This is the female:
Some progression comparison pics. Top is the older pic, bottom the recent pic. Here is the male. There are about 20 months between those pictures:
And here is the drastic change of my female. Only 9 months between the pictures.
And last but not least photos of the "happy" couple.
Hope you enjoy the photos.
Greets
Ingo
first a female that i bought really skinny in Hamm. She is building up nice.
And now some pics of my "high white" calico (or name it progressive pied) pair, that becomes less and less high white.
This is the female:
Some progression comparison pics. Top is the older pic, bottom the recent pic. Here is the male. There are about 20 months between those pictures:
And here is the drastic change of my female. Only 9 months between the pictures.
And last but not least photos of the "happy" couple.
Hope you enjoy the photos.
Greets
Ingo
CrestedRick
Active member
Wow i love the female in the first pic! Beautiful colors, haven't seen one with the two tones of blues like her, really really makes me want one!
billewicz
New member
I would consider that girl a calico as well. She has the white spot on her head and white toes. But on the other side naming tokay morphs that arent proven is pretty pointless.
I'll second that! What I have been able to produce is a Blue Granite by line breeding a double het male offspring back to its' white Granite/pied mother.
I've produced an all white with black eyes offspring by doing the same thing with another pair of white pied and their normal looking, double het offspring.
A couple of observations so far:
The Granite is only blue on very rare occasions. I suspect we'll she more from her once she comes of age.
The all white Tokay is now developing patches of dark patches with patterning. This confirms that her piedbaldism is progressive. Meaning is will continue to change over time, or at least up through adulthood.
So far, visual offspring with most of these white Tokay has only been possible through line breeding. By working with related animals the genetics line up correctly.
It has been my hypothesis that all the white Tokay are of the same genetic piedbald complex. What we've been seeing in wild caught examples is Tokay at various stages of their given condition.
I'm working to create some clarification by calling the multicolored Tokay, (Like my Avatar), a true Calico/pied. They feature varying patches of light green/gold/dark green/yellow/white/black and orange. I have offspring from two separate visual pairs that have produced duplicates with large patches of color and siblings were the color is speckled or Molten/Pied.
I'm further speculating that there is no Leucistic Tokay. I've never seen valid documentation of a blue eyed Tokay. Nor do I believe a white Tokay with black eyes is true leucism. A lot more breeding results will be needed to confirm or dispute what I've seen so far.
I've also noted before that a lot of the patches on white Tokay actually have a Granite pattern in them. I have several of these and I'd prefer to call these Granite/pied. The other pied I have show patches of normal patterning.
I do not have any results to predict a peach head so I'm not addressing that just yet. Obviously we are still in the very beginning stages of figuring these genetics out and I'm open to the fact this may all very well change as we get a couple of generations further down the road. I do feel that some naming adjustment are warranted at this point over what we've been working with to date.
CrestedRick
Active member
Wow she's beautiful as well. Love the coloration.
samboFishy
New member
Just want to say I love this thread, too bad theirs so many broken links in the beginning.