Just showing off our new Giant Leaf Tailed Geckos :)

[jadrig]

Armen, you are right, the miserable conditions comment sure was uncalled for...

I just hope it is another case of 'words getting lost in TRANSLATION' which seems to happen quite often.

These forums are an information knowledge base and should continue to be so. The most knowledgeable/resourceful people on this site NEVER speak in a condescending fashion...there is NO need to speak this way.

There is no one on this site that is so knowledgeable/experienced to where they can tell another keeper that their animals are miserable...or that they dont deserve to possess them...

I believe that a lot of the bitterness towards some new keepers has to due with the difference in certain gecko availability here in the United States compared to in Europe. Europeans do NOT understand the availablility of these geckos here. I understand because it is similar for us with some Phelsuma...
But at the same time, if I see some 15 year old kid from Europe with some rare Phelsuama...I am not going to say...You have no business keeping this animal because I cannot find them here in the states...It is not my place to say so.

I just cant stand the constant bitterness and condescending talk towards certain members. There is NO room for it. It is a big turn off for people trying to seek knowledge...

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Ok guys, let's not beat a dead horse here. I think that it's been fairly well established that the general consensus is that these animals need much larger enclosures as well as other husbandry issues addressed. However, keep in mind that you're not doing these animals any good if you scare the owners away from the forums. If you really care about what happens to these animals, you'll take the time to (constructively) help these people figure out what needs to be done to properly acclimate and keep these animals. Perhaps the owner got in a bit over their head with this purchase, but what's done is done now. As the old saying goes, "You can be part of the problem or part of the solution". Now, let's ditch the negativity and try to help these people to make the best out of the situation that they (and the geckos) are in.

 

[Mickej]

Who is to say that your animals are not in miserable conditions??

Jadrig, no you dont know anything about my animals or what i keep today but thats not the point. The point is that in my opinion its not ok to keep adult fimbriatus in that way, why not start in the right end and get the terrarium first and maybe even read a bit about the animal your about to purchase.

And yes it might have something to do with me beeing jealous of seeing people walk right in to a petstore and beeing able to buy adult fimbriatus since i have a very special place in my heart for the species. But i still think its sad to see animals that might die just becuase owners doesnt know what they are buying. Especially since it might not be that many years left that Uroplatus still exist in the wild, cutting down forest and collecting for the reptile industry is taking its toll on the wild populations so why not do your best to care for animals like this and even try to breed them? Not put them in a small aqurium like someone has done here.

Its been several years since i saw export/import papers from Madagascar to the states but there are thousands of uroplatus exported to Usa every year and how many of them do you think die in tanks like that with wrong humidity, bad ventilation and even a waterbowl....not that many WC Fimbs that would know what to do with a waterbowl is there??

And Jadrig if youre really intrested in seeing how my animal are doing i have a small video here for you, its mostly different Trimerusurus ssp. pitvipers and some Atheris so i dont know if it will intrest you.

YouTube - A small tour in My reptile room...

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

If you guys want to continue to argue with each other, that's fine, but please take it private (PMs or email). I have little tolerance for people mucking up the threads with fighting. Nobody learns anything from it and it leaves a bad impression on new members. Keep in mind that this is more than a message forum, it is an archive of information. And people will be viewing these threads over and over for a long time to come.

To those of you that DID respond to the original poster with considerate words of advice, I thank you. Our community is one consisting of a pool of hugely diverse experiences. Some of our members have almost NONE, while others have Phd's. But we are all here for the same reason...our love of geckos.

 

[desertanimal]

Unfortunately, as of two days ago, this user has posted a request for help on the cornsnake boards I frequent. The male of her pair is apparently deteriorating. I didn't see it until today, suggested that she join up here for help, and then did a little searching in this forum to see that she already had. I see she was chastised here for not having them in a proper set-up. You can rest assured that she has now been chastised over there for not coming over here for help.

I only post here because this saddens me. This as an example of a larger, more important phenomenon. As a researcher who works in Madagascar, I have personal knowledge of how much of a wreck the Madagascar National Parks have been in since the coup in March of 2009. There is basically no oversight of poaching and illegal logging. What oversight could there be? When I was there, salaries stopped coming down from the administration to park employees and at least "my" park relied only on researcher and tourist fees to pay its workers from April 2009 to May 2010, when my colleague finished his research and left. ("My" park has very few tourists, but also, has very little available for logging. Lots of radiated tortoises, though.)

I recognize the importance of the availability of WC animals to experienced herpetoculturists for establishment of those taxa in herpetoculture, which ultimately protects wild stocks. I also recognize that some "takes" are legal and are also sustainable according to available research--I have two my own WC, legally obtained Coleonyx from not far from my house. While US wildlife regulations are very far from perfect, they are at least supposed to be based on available ecological research, and in my case I really do believe that my personal two Coleonyx will not damage my local population. Also, they are personally collected and involve no collateral damage from shipping. Four were not taken in order for me to get my two alive. I bring this up only to point out that I am not against WC animals wholesale. But I am terribly saddened when delicate WC animals are readily available to the average, inexperienced keeper from countries in which no reasonable protections on the vanishingly few wildlife refuges left are currently in place.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thank you for sharing the above, desertanimal. I have just sent SynnandVenice an e-mail. (I realize that Synn and Venice could be the names she gave her new gecko pair.) Hopefully she will contact Luis W for assistance.

The reception she received upon her post here was really unfortunate. Hopefully it is not too late for the health of her Uroplatus fimbriatus.

 

[NigelMoses]

Thank you for sharing the above, desertanimal. I have just sent SynnandVenice an e-mail. (I realize that Synn and Venice could be the names she gave her new gecko pair.) Hopefully she will contact Luis W for assistance.

The reception she received upon her post here was really unfortunate. Hopefully it is not too late for the health of her Uroplatus fimbriatus.

I don't believe it to be unfortunate in any way. Luis immediately replied with a caresheet and a few others immediately told her the cage was too small, all great advice. Shame on her for not coming back and asking more questions. Although everyone can come off harsh it is simply because we care so much about the animals. If she had questions, everyone would have answered, she posted pictures and disappeared.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

I don't believe it to be unfortunate in any way. Luis immediately replied with a caresheet and a few others immediately told her the cage was too small, all great advice. Shame on her for not coming back and asking more questions. Although everyone can come off harsh it is simply because we care so much about the animals. If she had questions, everyone would have answered, she posted pictures and disappeared.

I have to disagree with you a bit there Bruce. This was this person's first post on GU and she was immediately met with a slew of negativity. And then the arguing started, adding to the negative tone of the thread. Had the responses been perhaps a little more gentle, perhaps she would have stuck around to ask more questions. Some people are more sensitive than others. Why would she want to ask more questions if she felt she was going to just get hammered with more negativity? Certainly, to some people's credit, there were some constructive responses as well. But for the most part, it was not done in a very helpful way. And the ones that lose from this are the geckos. And that I find to be very unfortunate.

 

[SynnAndVenice]

Oh man... Wrote up two pages worth in microsoft word and it was lost... Here goes nothing *sigh*

Firstly, I have had little access to a computer the last week. At this point though I'm seriously more concerned with the well being of these geckos than my reputation. I read what everyone had to say several days ago when I got the chance but did not post again.

I agree with everything everyone is saying about wild caught reptiles. I in no way ever wanted to own anything wild caught. This was a birthday present from my girlfriend, who didn't understand the importance of wild caught vs captive bred, and is more used to snakes than geckos so didn't give much thought to the mere 20 gallon tank we had available at the time.

They are now in a three foot tall terrarium. Plastic covering most of the screen save for holes where the light fixtures sit. Have done lots of research on lighting and realized the nightglo i have on them could be stressing them as well. Will be investing in a ceramic heat emitter to help heat them (the house stays around 65 degrees). They have a UVB light on during day time hours.

Misting three times a day, trying to keep humidity up around 75% but having problems doing so. Will probably make another investment in an automatic mister that we can have spray every three hours... We have also been offering water off their snouts via eye dropper every day which they gladly lap up. But their tails are still rather curled, a sign of dehydration. I'm trying to figure out how to help this, though maybe simply adding the automatic mister will help. I've heard offering half unflavored pediolite half water through the dropper is a good one, thoughts on this? I've also been advised to leave them in the bathroom during a long hot shower to give them a warm humid environment to soak in, what do you guys think about that? Any other tips for dehydration?

Another problem, with the male. He seemed to be getting weaker. We've been hand feeding both of them crickets by holding them and simply putting a hand below their jaws makes them open in a display. We simply put a gut loaded cricket half way in and then open our hands, and they eat and swallow the crickets on their own which is great. The female seems to be hunting though I haven't seen her catch a cricket in person since the second day they were here so I do this for her too. But the male is still acting weaker than when he first came in.

The last three days the male has needed to shed. The last two days it has literally been sagging off of him like a really bagging sweatsuit. It had a full on gap between it and his actual skin. He was looking a litter worse for wear this morning, laying near the bottom of the cage not even holding himself on the glass, so I went ahead and helped him take most of it off, which practically fell off. Left some on his feet to see if he could pull it off himself before work. After work I came home and pulled them out for some dropper fed water and was happy to see he seemed to perk up and actually started climbing the curtain in my room with almost as much vigor is when he first came, and even stopped and started trying to get his skin off one of his feet! So... THere is hope I suppose. I sure hope so.

I've been devoting pretty much all my extra money and time to these beautiful geckos. I could really use the advice and knowledge from the people on this forum. Luis, I particularly liked and found useful your care sheet. Thank you very much for it.

 

[SynnAndVenice]

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Synn,

Thanks for your update.

Good to hear that you have successfully assisted with the shed. The eyes/head and the feet are the most important parts to be shed-skin free.

These guys are sensitive. Are you misting/droplet feeding with spring water instead of tap water? Another suggestion I've had is R(everse) O(smosis) water.

Potted plants will really help boost the ambient humidity. Otherwise, in my experience the humidity seems to rapidly plummet once the droplets have dried.

Another way to increase the ambient humidity is to have a layer of hy droton (brand name) clay culture balls. Seems like maybe 3 or so inches of that would be good for the pictured tank. You can separate the hy droton from the other substrate by using weed blocker cloth or fiberglass door screen to prevent the soil from mixing with the hy droton.

Zoo Med has an automatic and adjustable mister called Habba Mist which is reasonably priced.

 

[Mickej]

Great work! The new cage looks really good and you've sermed like you picked up alot by reading.
I wanna say that om sorry if i came of harsch or unfriendly. I just feel alot for Madagascar and these geckos.
I cross my thumbs for your male and that he will come around even though sign like the ones your mentioning arent that good when it come to Uroplatus. But still i hope to see more of them.

Best regards

Michael

 

[NigelMoses]

Room temperatures are fine with fimbriatus although that cage is tall enough to add some heat, I would not do this for the night time but let the night temps drop to room temperature. I used to use a low wattage heat bulb on a screen top and if they wanted to bask near it they would and they could also escape to a cooler location if need be. I would also recommend getting more ventilation as they become more acclimated and hydrated. The air can become stagnate and cause other problems if you do not allow air flow. For the time being this is good for them to gain strength in the terrarium. Once hydrated, I would also not mist as much as 3 times a day, many believe it is important to keep a constant humidity of 70% plus all the time, I find this dangerous as you risk disease and bacteria. If the substrate can really drain and not remain wet, this is a great idea however most terrariums are not set up to dry out when misted that much and it becomes a haven for bacteria. Allow for the bedding to dry out during the day, my fimbriatus liked it dryer than you would think. Eventually they will only need a single misting at night and it should dry up by morning. A good way to measure if you are misting too heavily is the amount of water droplets on the glass come morning, if the water is still all over the glass and fogged up, you should cut back. Also measure the relative humidity in the room they are kept in. If it remains between 45% and 55% you are golden. The misting at night will help maintain the higher humidity that is needed.

Also, try and let them eat on their own. Force feeding can be stressful. Once they become hydrated you will be amazed at how strong they become, it just takes time. Try offering crickets in a plastic dish at the bottom, this will allow for easy access and will allow for you to measure how many they are eating.

Lastly I would not put them in a hot shower, I feel it would heat up too much in the bathroom. Misting them a few times during the day until they show signs of improvement should suffice and if you wanted to give them pedialyte with an eye dropper that would be fine.

Hope this helps.

 

[geckomeister]

Hi,

I'm just catching the end of this thread. I skimmed some of the earlier posts and it seems a lot of useful information has already been communicated. I'll just go over a few points that i think are important.

Sure, fimbriatus look good in a 100 gallon vivarium, however I've kept and bred many in smaller setups. Height is most important and I think your newer cage will be fine. I recommend a height of 36" or more. Screen cages may work if you have high ambient humidity, but in your case, glass or acrylic with a screen top and a screen door in the front or side or some sort of ventilation nearer the bottom would be best. I have terrible results with screen cages due to the AC drying out the air in my room.

Despite what some may say, a water dish is an excellent idea if your fimbriatus are a bit dehydrated. I've used them now and then over the winter when humidity was low and i've witnessed the larger Uroplatus drinking from a dish more than once. When they're not dehydrated, then a bowl isn't necessary. Consider adding a small fountain to increase ambient humidity and provide extra drinking water. The water/pedialyte suggestion is good if the tails don't flatten out and the animals are still stressed out.

Temperatures should be 75-78 F during the day and the addition of a small basking light to raise part of the top to 78-82 F is not a bad idea when females are gravid, but this can wait until the geckos are well-hydrated. The temperature should drop 5-10 F at night. These are summer temperatures, I let it get a little cooler during winter.

Crickets are ok, but try to provide roaches as well. Most of mine learned to eat superworms, but this requires some special care with setting up a dish that won't damage their snouts or hand-feeding. They also love large moths (don't use brightly colored ones that may be toxic).

Fecal tests (repeat 3 times at two-week intervals) can help to tell you if you have parasites to deal with. Deworming is often a good idea, but opinions will vary on doing this without a diagnosis.

I hope this helps.

Neil Meister

 

[SynnAndVenice]

Elizabeth - Boy do I feel dumb. I'm so used to my snakes who are fine with tap water, that's what we've been using for the geckos. Picked up some distilled water already so that it wont leave water droplets on the glass and if I get the mister it wont calcify as bad. Thanks for the reminder! Doh!

We are planning on potting some fern type plants. Can you recommend anything else that would do good in their type of set up?

Michael - no problem. I deserved it.

Bruce - interesting on the humidity, thanks. As for the shower we actually gave it a try last night and it REALLY perked them up! They were wandering around, tasting and licking up lots of water from the walls, the male actually pooped ( a huge one at that, hah ) and the rest of his skin was easy to peel right off. This morning when I woke up, their tails were almost totally flat again! So it sure seemed to work. They're more curled again now that I'm home from work. Am going to give them some pedialyte to lick off themselves in just a minute.

Neil - I agree about the water bowl. In fact, the very first day they arrived, I witnessed the female full on drinking out of it!

 

[Graham_s]

It is excellent to see that you have been taking all the advice, even despite the very blunt posts. Although sometimes being blunt has the most significant impact.

If you follow Bruce and Neil's advice, then you will be doing almost everything you can to give these geckos some excellent husbandry!

I use either tap water or RO water for my Uroplatus. I have never had an issue with either. Although I personally have thoughts about using RO water on a long term basis, I haven't investigated it yet and I still use it from time to time.

As for plants, any of the following would be great to use (although they will need to be fairly large for fimbriatus):
Bamboo (live plants or dead & dried), dracaena, bromeliads, I have also used yucca plants, rubber plants, willow, oak, ash and a few others for my Uroplatus.
Palm species should work a treat as well, provided that they aren't any of the very thorny ones.

If you can get your hands on some cork panels for the side of the vivarium, I cannot recommend them enough! They may need to be cut to size, but that is easily done with a tape measure and a very sharp knife.

Keep up the good work, and kepe us updated on how you're getting on!

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

@ Graham...I've been using RO water for 5+ years now on all of my animals (geckos, parrots, dog, and myself included) and so far have had no problems with it.

@ the rest of you, thank you for continuing to give advice and help this person with their geckos. It's nice to see some community action!

@ Synn...take these people's advice. It's the best you're going to get anywhere. I'm glad to hear that your animals are turning the corner. Hopefully you'll be able to get them fully acclimated.

 

[SynnAndVenice]

Hey guys just another update...

Don't think the male is going to make it. I was lucky to get him to eat just one cricket today. He still eats occassionally and drinks the water off himself pretty well but every day his eyes seem more sunken in, and his tail is more curled. It's very sad.

The female on the other hand is looking better than ever. Her frill is almost always out under her chin, her tail is nice and broad. We actually got to see her catch a cricket last night right before we turned their UVB light off which was cool. She drinks well off herself when we mist her. So I'm sure she'll be fine.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Synn ~

Praying for your male. Hope he makes a turnaround.

Have you tried the unflavored Pedialyte? That's an electrolite replacement as you may know.

Have you a hygrometer to measure ambient humidity?

Good work with your female!

 

[SynnAndVenice]

Hi Elizabeth
Yes the male is getting unflavored pediolite every day and he does drink some. But he still looks worse every day, poor guy

Yes I've got two hydrometers in there. It gets up to about 80% right after misting but goes down to about 40 or 50% I between mistings