Help! 2 Questions!

[Embrace Calamity]

Think of us running outside in the middle of winter with no coat on.:biggrin: Most of the time we get away with it, but once in a while we develop a cold. Best to think prevention and avoid possibilities.

Yes, but 65 is hardly comparable to 25. The question comes down to whether or not 65 is low enough to cause harm by only being exposed for a few moments. I'm willing to be that it does drop below 65 in their natural habitats, which is why it seems like something that one needn't be overly concerned with.

~Maggot

 

[cricket4u]

Yes, but 65 is hardly comparable to 25. The question comes down to whether or not 65 is low enough to cause harm by only being exposed for a few moments. I'm willing to be that it does drop below 65 in their natural habitats, which is why it seems like something that one needn't be overly concerned with.

~Maggot

Well, all we do know is that they eat as much as they can and brumate (remain hidden in burrows) when the temps are not beneficial. They may not come out of the burrows until it gets warmer. Even if there's a chance they come out while it's 65f, it's out of desperate measures (starvation). Most people want to see their geckos active and eating in captivity, therefore you must provide them with comfortable temps. Most are provided only about 2-3 feet of space to be active, compared to unlimited space in the wild. Allow half the enclosure to drop below comfort levels, they'll only have about a foot to work with.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Well, all we do know is that they eat as much as they can and brumate (remain hidden in burrows) when the temps are not beneficial. They may not come out of the burrows until it gets warmer. Even if there's a chance they come out while it's 65f, it's out of desperate measures (starvation). Most people want to see their geckos active and eating in captivity, therefore you must provide them with comfortable temps. Most are provided only about 2-3 feet of space to be active, compared to unlimited space in the wild. Allow half the enclosure to drop below comfort levels, they'll only have about a foot to work with.

Pakistan Climate and Weather Averages
Now, of course, that's just Pakistan, and those are only average temperatures, but if they brumated anytime it dropped below 70, they would, on average, be brumating from October to May, or 8 months out of the year.

Also, in all fairness, I wouldn't consider half the enclosure to be the "cold side." It's not like the warm side is 80+ and then, BAM, right at the half-way mark it drops to 65. There should be an in-between, hence calling it a "gradient."

It would be interesting to see someone try this, though, since it's all speculation without any real data. I'd be interested to know what a gecko did if the warm side was kept at about 85 and the warm side allowed to drop below 70 versus a warm side about 85 and a cool side about 73.

~Maggot

 

[cricket4u]

Pakistan Climate and Weather Averages
Now, of course, that's just Pakistan, and those are only average temperatures, but if they brumated anytime it dropped below 70, they would, on average, be brumating from October to May, or 8 months out of the year.

Also, in all fairness, I wouldn't consider half the enclosure to be the "cold side." It's not like the warm side is 80+ and then, BAM, right at the half-way mark it drops to 65. There should be an in-between, hence calling it a "gradient."

It would be interesting to see someone try this, though, since it's all speculation without any real data. I'd be interested to know what a gecko did if the warm side was kept at about 85 and the warm side allowed to drop below 70 versus a warm side about 85 and a cool side about 73.

~Maggot

Plenty of people who have not been properly educated at first have allowed their enclosures to drop below 70f. The results at times were not very pretty, URI, undigested food, poor appetite, ect..

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Plenty of people who have not been properly educated at first have allowed their enclosures to drop below 70f. The results at times were not very pretty, URI, undigested food, poor appetite, ect..

Are you talking just the cold side or the entire enclosure?

~Maggot

 

[cricket4u]

The entire enclosure, I thought that was what you meant towards the end of your quote?

the warm side allowed to drop below 70 versus a warm side about 85 and a cool side about 73.


I recall at least with one person whose whole enclosure was 65-72 at night. They where only using a very low watt night bulb and this is how one side was a bit higher.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

The entire enclosure, I thought that was what you meant towards the end of your quote?

the warm side allowed to drop below 70 versus a warm side about 85 and a cool side about 73.


I recall at least with one person whose whole enclosure was 65-72 at night. They where only using a very low watt night bulb and this is how one side was a bit higher.

No, sorry, that was a typo. It was supposed to read: "I'd be interested to know what a gecko did if the warm side was kept at about 85 and the cold side allowed to drop below 70..." A gecko that doesn't have anywhere warm to go to digest its food will likely have all kinds of issues.

~Maggot

 

[Hilde]

I recall at least with one person whose whole enclosure was 65-72 at night.

All my gecko enclosures are at room temperature for about 8 hours at night. In summer it's whatever the temperature is, I don't have A/C. It could be 70°F, could be 80°F+. In winter the furnace is set to 64°F, that's what all the geckos live with. The UTHs go off at 8PM, (back on at 8AM), the enclosures have pretty much cooled to room temperature by 10PM.

All species I keep, Rhacs, leopards, AFT, frog-eyes, and more, get cooled at night, some have been living it for around 20 years.

In the case of wild leopards, they get cooled at night, not just down a few degrees from 90°F. They go out to eat, mate, fight intruders, whatever they do when awake. They do all this when it's cooler, and with a full stomach. They might be up and about all night, or just a few hours, but come dawn they drag their filled bellies back home. They don't get properly warmed up until a few hours later when the temperature has risen enough to warm the burrow. Then they thermoregulate as needed. Digestion doesn't really get started until they warm up again. They only have a few hours at optimum temperatures so it could take more than a day to digest their food, another reason for not eating every day.

Even if they did head back to the burrow immediately after eating, they wouldn't find it warmed to 90°F or so, they'd still have to wait for the sun to come back the next day to get "optimum digestion temperatures".

Digestion does need heat, but that doesn't mean they can't be roaming around at night with a full tummy because it's cooled down.

Plenty of people who have not been properly educated at first have allowed their enclosures to drop below 70f. The results at times were not very pretty, URI, undigested food, poor appetite, ect..

Night drops to 70°F with proper day temperatures won't cause URI, poor appetite or undigested food. If it was that easy to get them sick they would have been extinct aeons ago. Poor health (e.g. parasites, infection) or husbandry would be my guess, the lower temperatures just amplify the problems.

 

[cricket4u]

They live half as long in the wild and many succumb to illness. You cannot compare the conditions in captivity to those in the wild. I have seen at least one of your leos and she was obviously not overfed. She will go out and hunt even when conditions are not ideal. My point is the majority of leos are fed so much that they will only come out in the cold when they're not stuffed. As you know in their minds it's eat all you can while you have the chance.

As for the geckos who did end up ill from lower night temps, I can honestly tell you that at least one person did everything correct during the day and her gecko developed a URI. I checked her husbandry during the day, but she failed to mention until afterwards that she was not providing a heat source at night. Yes, some may get away with it, but others won't. Just like there are some leos that have less tolerance to higher temps than others.

I personally believe that allowing ther temps to drop below 70f at night has consequences, although not immediate sometimes. Internal illnesses can develop over years and slowly begin to show signs. Sometimes liver disease or metabolic issues and suddenly the gecko dies. By then the cause of death cannot be determined correctly.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

What's the point of using two different ones, especially if only one contains vitamin A? By doing that, you're decreasing the amount of vitamin A they would be getting by 1/3-1/2 (in comparison to using just the Reptivite 2-3 times a week), which, frankly, doesn't sound like a good idea.

Plus, with the variance of how much calcium and D3 are in different supplements, you could be giving them too much or too little by mixing them. Recommending mixing one supplement with a random other supplement to an arbitrarily defined "once per week" amount doesn't sound like a good idea either.
Will spending a minute or two in temps below 70 really hurt them?

~Maggot

Like everything, some people are not fans of Reptivite with D3/A acetate lightly dusted 2x per week or really fans of Zoo Med's Reptivite at all. By offering Reptivite with D3 1x per week and some other phosphorus-free calcium with D3 the other time per week, the leos still receive some D3 2x per week plus a multivitamin 1x per week. That's all.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Like everything, some people are not fans of Reptivite with D3/A acetate lightly dusted 2x per week or really fans of Zoo Med's Reptivite at all. By offering Reptivite with D3 1x per week and some other phosphorus-free calcium with D3 the other time per week, the leos still receive some D3 2x per week plus a multivitamin 1x per week. That's all.

Yes, but, by doing that, since you don't know what supplement the person would choose, you're recommending they give an unknown amount of calcium and D3 and cutting the amount of vitamin A they're getting in half or even more. Mixing supplements doesn't sound like a good suggestion to make, especially when you don't even give a specific one to use, which means you (and likely the person following the advice) would have no idea what levels of anything the gecko would actually be getting.

~Maggot

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Yes, but, by doing that, since you don't know what supplement the person would choose, you're recommending they give an unknown amount of calcium and D3 and cutting the amount of vitamin A they're getting in half or even more. Mixing supplements doesn't sound like a good suggestion to make, especially when you don't even give a specific one to use, which means you (and likely the person following the advice) would have no idea what levels of anything the gecko would actually be getting.

~Maggot

One could choose Zoo Med's calcium with D3.

There are many variables. What do you suggest, EC?

 

[Embrace Calamity]

One could choose Zoo Med's calcium with D3.

There are many variables. What do you suggest, EC?

Yes, they could. But, again, my point is that there are many different supplements out there, and by recommending that people cut down on the Reptivite and then add any random supplement that contains calcium and D3 instead of following the instructions on either supplement, you have no idea what levels of calcium, D3, vitamin A, or anything else you're really suggesting the gecko get in their diet. My suggestion would be to follow the instructions of whatever supplement used.

~Maggot

 

[ZiggyGecko]

Thanks everyone! I've had her for 4 days and she just ate five meal worms
Right now she's on her hide and walking around the tank!

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Thanks everyone! I've had her for 4 days and she just ate five meal worms
Right now she's on her hide and walking around the tank!

Sorry for totally hijacking your thread. I'm glad she's doing well.

~Maggot

 

[ZiggyGecko]

Hey, no I was reading all the posts so I was learning from them too and thanks!