Does Brumation explain the reasons behind my Leo's Lethargy?

[CaptnCopperCogz]

Hello Gecko community!

I know there are various guidelines to opening new threads etc. and generally using forums. I've tried to search the forums for information but I was unable to find anything matching my current situation.

The problem: My Leopard Gecko, almost 2 years old, has been extremely lethargic as of late. Also he hasn't been eating. No food for about 3 weeks now, I have managed to put a little crushed-up Mealworm 'paste' onto his lip and have him lick it off. I had hoped this would give him some sustenance, perking him up a little, however, this was not the case. He still continued to sleep all day (normal) but also most of the night.

In addition to the lack of food he has also been sleeping exclusively on the cold-side. Avoiding the warmth at all costs, even if it meant he had to sleep out in the open. (an experiment, I moved his cold hut to the warm side to see if he merely preferred that particular hut, he did not).

Finally, the most worrying part of this 'trio'. One night after spending approx. 2 hours roaming my room, I put him back into his Vivarium, on top of his rocks. He laid down straight away, which was unusual, but then his front-left leg began to twitch, quite violently. I then assumed he was unable to climb down from his rock because he usually does this right away, I lifted him up and placed him onto the reptile carpet. Then began the most worrying of all, he dragged the twitching leg along the floor, accompanied by his back-left leg awkwardly circling wide as if he was unable to bend it at the knee. I assumed these to be signs of Metabolic Bone Disease.

This was the moment I decided I needed to get some Calcium into him, since he had not been eating. Hence the Mealworm 'paste'. I was also able to take a small pipette and drip a few drops of water directly onto his tongue, he seemed to enjoy this, in order to keep him well hydrated.

I've avoided force feeding him as I've read multiple cases that suggest it stresses Leo's out, I wanted to avoid any undue stress at all costs.

I live in Hull and know of no local Reptile specialists, (any help here would be great) but in addition to that, the leg twitches and stiffness have also gone completely. Now he's merely lethargic and not eating, yet, he does see his food - he even goes as far as licking it, but then he turns away, disinterested. I've tried him on everything I can find, bar roaches. Inc. Fruit Grubs, Earthworms and Calci-worms.

He shows no sign of impaction, he still defecates. His feces look normal, apart from been small - due to not eating.

He weights 74 grams at current. His weight hasn't shifted at all in the 3 weeks he hasn't ate.

He shows no physical signs of illness, he seems well in himself, lethargic, but normal.

This is why I am hesitant about taking him to a vet, there are no real signs of anything wrong.

The only conclusion I can come too is a late Brumation, as I understand it ends around February time. (I could be wrong). I did not intend him to undergo a Brumation but we have had a cold winter and his temps dropped 1 or 2 degrees.

Now, I know a lot of information is required regarding husbandry so, here goes;

Gecko details

Species; Leopard Gecko.

Name; Wreckerz

Morph; (unsure) but possibly a hypo-carrot-tail, super-hypo maybe? I'm uncertain. He's beautiful though!

Gender; Male, though his pre-anal pores are very faint.

Age; approx. 1 year, 5 months

Weight; 74 grams.

Total length; I can't recall but it was approx. 9 inches iirc.

Length when acquired; approx. 7 inches.

Source; Pets at Home

Captive bred.

Vivarium details

Dimensions; Length 36 inches, Depth 18 inches, Height, 20 inches

Cage type; Vivexotic VX 36 inch Breeder

Substrate; Reptile carpet

Hiding places provided; Moist/Humid hide, Multiple leafs (fake), Warm hide x2, Cold hide, Medium hide

Other furnishings; Small Calcium dish, Medium water dish, Rope pole (climbs on to defecate)

Recent changes to environment; re-arranging of leafs, nothing major.

Lighting

Bulb; 25 watt UVB sunglow bulb. 12-hour cycle.

Daylight; Direct sunlight in the afternoon, not excessively bright.

Heating

Under-floor-heating x3. 1 Large (main), 1 wall for ambient temperature and 1 extra on floor for cold days.

Thermostat (currently unused, managing closer myself with thermometers in multiple locations).

Air temp; cold side - 20C, warm side - 22C.

Floor temp; cold side - 23C, raising to 24 in the day and 22 at night. warm side - 32C, raising to 34 in the day and 31 at night. (using only the main heat mat). With all heat mats the temperatures rise by approx 2-3 degrees each. Air temps by 1 degree each.

I have played around with various temperatures, he has always preferred it 1 or 2 degrees lower than recommended. However, he is currently spending all his time on the cold.

I've tested him on temps as high as 40C. So temperature does not seem to be the problem.

Humidity

I do not actively monitor the Humidity but I provide a moist hide at all times. However, there are no factors that would effect the humidity. It's should be the same as always.

Diet

Usually 5-7 crickets a night.
or
4-5 Locust
or
15 Mealworms
or
1-2 Waxworms (treats)

These are only approximations as I gave him what he could eat in 5-10 minutes. Then removed excess while leaving a dish of Mealworms in his cage. However, he hasn't ate Mealworms in a long time. He's never been fond of them.

Regularly dusted with Calcium, alternated with Calcium+Vitamins. D3 included.

The in-tank Calcium is without D3.

Additional health observations

Urates are still pure white. Double the size of current feces, due to not eating no doubt.

Feces are a chocolate (sorry for ruining chocolate) colour. Small, only 1cm or less in length (only since he hasn't been eating).

Around the same time Wreckerz stopped eating, Lillith, my other Leo who his housed separate also stopped eating. However, after 3-4 days she began eating as normal, more in fact as she rocketed from 66 grams to 77 in 7 weeks.

I believe I've covered everything, if there is anything else then please query.

Also, in regard to forum rules etc. I've never posted or used a forum before so I apologise in advanced for anything that I have done incorrectly.

As I'm aware, many of you like to see pictures of Leos so, here is a link to my Picasa album which has a few pictures from the past year. Enjoy!

https://plus.google.com/photos/100066589213399920154/albums/5860176582452311377?authkey=CJjOpoTo1Nq9oQE

 

[acpart]

Welcome to the forum. As far as posting goes, you're doing fine. I'm assuming from your posting language that when you say you're from "Hull" you mean the UK (there's a Hull near me, but it's in Massachusetts), so I can't help you out about a reptile vet (but if you were in MA there's one really close to Hull, oh well). I don't particularly worry about a gecko not eating in the winter especially if it's not losing weight. As far as I know, twitching is not usually a sign of MBD, rather I'd expect to see rubbery limbs. A number of my leopard geckos aren't eating yet. I have no idea about the twitching. I'm glad it's stopped. The only advice I could offer for now is to keep offering and hope that he picks up when it warms up.

Aliza

 

[CaptnCopperCogz]

Thank you, yes Hull in the UK. I keep forgetting that there are multiple locations with the same name!

Ah, well it's comforting to know that my Leo isn't the only one who isn't eating. I've only had him just over a year so I haven't yet had him for a 'full cycle' so his habits and such are still unbeknownst to me.

I've attached two new images to the album, linked above, of his jaw. It seems solid, sturdy and despite, possibly, a little excess weight seems pretty much normal.

Regarding the twitching, I've had him out again this evening and he seems a little more spirited, plus there are no signs of twitching or leg-dragging. I'm inclined to believe that it may of been fatigue as he was out, walking and running, for a much longer period of time than normal.

Anyway, I'd best put him away and rest myself. Thank you for the reply, it gives great peace of mind.

All the best,

Capt'n.

 

[cricket4u]

Thank you, yes Hull in the UK. I keep forgetting that there are multiple locations with the same name!

Ah, well it's comforting to know that my Leo isn't the only one who isn't eating. I've only had him just over a year so I haven't yet had him for a 'full cycle' so his habits and such are still unbeknownst to me.

I've attached two new images to the album, linked above, of his jaw. It seems solid, sturdy and despite, possibly, a little excess weight seems pretty much normal.

Regarding the twitching, I've had him out again this evening and he seems a little more spirited, plus there are no signs of twitching or leg-dragging. I'm inclined to believe that it may of been fatigue as he was out, walking and running, for a much longer period of time than normal.

Anyway, I'd best put him away and rest myself. Thank you for the reply, it gives great peace of mind.

All the best,

Capt'n.

Hi,

Not everyone who answers takes time to read your whole post so it's always best to wait for more than one reply. There are a few concerns with your husbandry and info you provided, therefore it would be in the best interest of your gecko to fill out out the questionnaire in this link.


http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...68527-helping-your-sick-gecko-read-first.html

There are several reasons why a gecko would avoid heat. These are a few most common reasons that my currently tired brain can think of.
Dehydration

Overall conditions are not favorable for proper body functioning(too cold or too dry usually) ,so he is trying to shut himself down in order to save fat, bad idea in captivity.

Infection in his body- less likely if the gecko isn't showing any other symptoms. Sometimes they seek the higher end, sometimes the low in order to slow down the growth of microorgansims.

Belly burns from an unregulated UTH or any basking spot- not necessarily visible. This can cause dehydration as well.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi CaptnCopperCogz ~

Everyone spots different things, so here goes .

Twitches are a red flag, violent or even minor. At first the twitches don't happen very often. As time goes on they increase in frequency leading to full-blown seizures and sometimes death. When this happened to some of my smaller geckos, I realized that I had been lax on the calcium with D3 dusting. Caught early on, the gecko can recover.

Are you using Pro Rep Calci-Dust and Nutrobal? How often are you dusting with a D3 containing supplement? You mention a 25 watt UVB sunglow bulb. Supplementing with any powdered source of D3 plus using a 25 watt UVB sunglow can be overkill and perhaps the very cause of the twitching you observed. The few people I know who use UVB on their leos do not supplement with a powdered D3. Too much D3 is as bad as not enough :sad:.

You mention that the current size of the urates is 2x the size of the feces. What is it usually? Should be about 1/3 the size of the feces.

Waxworms are not a healthy treat. They are super fatty, like humans eating Baskin Robbins ice cream. Try something like nice juicy hornworms to add variety to your leo's diet.

Suggest using your thermostat. No matter what you can't be around 24/7. A thermostat will keep your leo's temperatures comfortable round the clock.

Direct sunlight: Is the cage close enough to the rays from the sunlight for them to cause the tank to heat up at all? Distant access to daylight is better.

When the leo is out of his enclosure for 2 hours, the leo's body temperature drops. His cage should be more cozy than most other places in our homes.

The reason for your leo's "lethargy" could also be that air temperatures are too cold. How are you measuring the temperature? Overhead heat in addition to an UTH is ideal.

What is the range of temperatures in the room where leo Wreckerz's vivarium sits?

These are the temperatures many of us recommend for leos.
Daytime temperatures for all leos regardless of size:
88-93 F (31-34 C) ground temp at warm end inside the warm dry hide
no greater than 85 F (29.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
no greater than 75 F (24.5) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

Main heating should come from the UTHs.

There possibly could be important details from GU's health questionnaire which have been left out in your report. For example: the diet you feed your crickets and locusts and whether you separately gutload the crickets and locusts 1-2 days prior to feeding them off.

 

[CaptnCopperCogz]

Hi,

Not everyone who answers takes time to read your whole post so it's always best to wait for more than one reply. There are a few concerns with your husbandry and info you provided, therefore it would be in the best interest of your gecko to fill out out the questionnaire in this link.


http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...68527-helping-your-sick-gecko-read-first.html

There are several reasons why a gecko would avoid heat. These are a few most common reasons that my currently tired brain can think of.
Dehydration

Overall conditions are not favorable for proper body functioning(too cold or too dry usually) ,so he is trying to shut himself down in order to save fat, bad idea in captivity.

Infection in his body- less likely if the gecko isn't showing any other symptoms. Sometimes they seek the higher end, sometimes the low in order to slow down the growth of microorgansims.

Belly burns from an unregulated UTH or any basking spot- not necessarily visible. This can cause dehydration as well.

Hi cricket4u,

Thank you for the heads-up. I've filled out most of the questionnaire in my 1st post. I'll provide more accurate readings of Wreckerz temperatures today along with pictures of his enclosure.

Dehydration was a concern of mine since I hadn't seen him drink for a long time and I assume they get some of the water from food, since he isn't eating he wouldn't be getting this at all. I've been giving him a small pipette full every other day, as much as he wants until he turns his head away and stops licking so I hope this will solve any dehydration issues.

Dryness is a concern, I don't currently monitor the humidity. I'll head to my local reptile store and get a hydrometer today and update you with the findings.

I've checked his belly extensively and found no signs of burns, however, as you stated if burns are sometimes not visible is there any way of finding out? - other than visual signs.

Also, thank you greatly for the information. I'm new to keeping reptiles but it's comforting to know there is a community out there willing and capable of helping.

 

[CaptnCopperCogz]

Hi CaptnCopperCogz ~

Everyone spots different things, so here goes .

Twitches are a red flag, violent or even minor. At first the twitches don't happen very often. As time goes on they increase in frequency leading to full-blown seizures and sometimes death. When this happened to some of my smaller geckos, I realized that I had been lax on the calcium with D3 dusting. Caught early on, the gecko can recover.

Are you using Pro Rep Calci-Dust and Nutrobal? How often are you dusting with a D3 containing supplement? You mention a 25 watt UVB sunglow bulb. Supplementing with any powdered source of D3 plus using a 25 watt UVB sunglow can be overkill and perhaps the very cause of the twitching you observed. The few people I know who use UVB on their leos do not supplement with a powdered D3. Too much D3 is as bad as not enough :sad:.

You mention that the current size of the urates is 2x the size of the feces. What is it usually? Should be about 1/3 the size of the feces.

Waxworms are not a healthy treat. They are super fatty, like humans eating Baskin Robbins ice cream. Try something like nice juicy hornworms to add variety to your leo's diet.

Suggest using your thermostat. No matter what you can't be around 24/7. A thermostat will keep your leo's temperatures comfortable round the clock.

Direct sunlight: Is the cage close enough to the rays from the sunlight for them to cause the tank to heat up at all? Distant access to daylight is better.

When the leo is out of his enclosure for 2 hours, the leo's body temperature drops. His cage should be more cozy than most other places in our homes.

The reason for your leo's "lethargy" could also be that air temperatures are too cold. How are you measuring the temperature? Overhead heat in addition to an UTH is ideal.

What is the range of temperatures in the room where leo Wreckerz's vivarium sits?

These are the temperatures many of us recommend for leos.
Daytime temperatures for all leos regardless of size:
88-93 F (31-34 C) ground temp at warm end inside the warm dry hide
no greater than 85 F (29.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
no greater than 75 F (24.5) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

Main heating should come from the UTHs.

There possibly could be important details from GU's health questionnaire which have been left out in your report. For example: the diet you feed your crickets and locusts and whether you separately gutload the crickets and locusts 1-2 days prior to feeding them off.

Hi Elizabeth,

Thank you for the information.

The twitches have subsided now that I have been providing him with a Calcium-enriched Mealworm 'paste'. With him not eating he wasn't getting any of the Calcium or Vitamins he needed via dusting food.

I'm using both Pro Rep Calci-Dust and Nutrobal, I alternate these daily with Sundays having no dust on food at all since he sometimes likes them more without. I didn't know about excess D3 been bad, I shall either turn his UVB bulb off and use sunlight or use a dusting without D3.

Normal urates:feces ratio are as you stated, 1/3 urates.

I'll begin using my thermostat again today.

He's about 5 meters away from the window, directly in-front. The sun rays are enough to provide ample lighting but not strong enough to provide any heat increase at all.

When he's out I usually provide a hot-water bottle covered with fabric which he lays on, this is located just outside of his Vivarium and he usually knows to use it if he is cold but he hasn't been using it as of late - when out he looks for cold places to hide. e.g. near my window (there is a slight breeze).

I only measure his air temps once or twice a week, I use his UVB bulb to provide an ambient air temp along with a UTH placed on the wall of his viv'.

Room temperatures range from 21C - 25C. (my room is very warm, I keep it warm especially for the Leos).

His air temps are a little lower than recommended, I will place thermometers in today, 4-inches from the ground and measure them throughout the day. If they are low I'll invest in a ceramic bulb/heater.

All his food is gut-loaded, I keep his food in large plastic containers with food and water-gel or fruit/vegetables, so they are usually "permanently" gut-loaded. I've tried altering the crickets food to see if the taste altered, still no luck getting him to eat. I also purchase new crickets every week, letting the remaining crickets go free.

Thank you for the information provided, it's been of great help!

 

[XoVictoryXo]

i would try a week of administering liquid nutrients, going that long off food makes me uncomfortable, is he thin? can you post a picture of him?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I'm using both Pro Rep Calci-Dust and Nutrobal, I alternate these daily with Sundays having no dust on food at all since he sometimes likes them more without. I didn't know about excess D3 been bad, I shall either turn his UVB bulb off and use sunlight or use a dusting without D3.

I would skip the 25 watt sunglow bulb maybe permanently. Don't depend upon window light cuz glass and screens filter the UVB. What do the directions on your Nutrobal say for frequency of use? I do not use a supplement that can be administered daily or with each feeding. I only recommend dusting with a D3 containing supplement 2-3x per week.

For a couple days prior to using either of these powdered all-in-one foods that you mix with only water, be sure your leo is hydrated. You can get Fluker's Repti+Boost ^ online or get Oxbow's Carnivore Care through a vet.

Thanks for being open to suggestions for improving your leo's care. We were all nOObs once.

 

[CaptnCopperCogz]

i would try a week of administering liquid nutrients, going that long off food makes me uncomfortable, is he thin? can you post a picture of him?
View attachment 21888

Hi Victory, He's not thin at all, he's quite tubby I believe. I've attached a picture below, I also have a link at the bottom of my 1st post which is a Google Picasa album containing pictures of him.

I am unable to find any of the Flukers Repta-Boost in the UK but I will look for alternatives, thank you. <3

Please note that the first image is from approx. 1 year ago, when I first got him.

 

[CaptnCopperCogz]

I would skip the 25 watt sunglow bulb maybe permanently. Don't depend upon window light cuz glass and screens filter the UVB. What do the directions on your Nutrobal say for frequency of use? I do not use a supplement that can be administered daily or with each feeding. I only recommend dusting with a D3 containing supplement 2-3x per week.

For a couple days prior to using either of these powdered all-in-one foods that you mix with only water, be sure your leo is hydrated. You can get Fluker's Repti+Boost ^ online or get Oxbow's Carnivore Care through a vet.

Thanks for being open to suggestions for improving your leo's care. We were all nOObs once.

Ah, I did not know the glass filtered the UVB. I will purchase a standard light bulb when I go to the pet store tomorrow, would it be advisable to get a spot-light? I've read posts around the forums where people use spot-lights for extra heat from above?

The sunglow bulb is now off!

Thermostat installed again.

The Neutrobal only states the following instructions; "1 pinch pet kilo of animal been fed". The Calci-dust states 2-3 times a week. I use the Neutrobal on the days I do not use Calci-dust. However, as you've said I believe with the UVB as well this is overkill. I'll reduce the amount of Calci-dusting and Neutrobal.

I'll keep him hydrated via the pipette with water, I have purchased some of the Oxbow Carnivore Care; link below.

Oxbow Carnivore Care Sachet 70g - Animed Direct

It should arrive within 1-2 days, this gives me time to keep him hydrated prior to using this Oxbow Carnivore Care.

Again, I really appreciate all the help given. Thank you, all, very much!

 

[XoVictoryXo]

WOW! I didnt know you could buy oxbow online - i thought you got it at a vets office.

 

[CaptnCopperCogz]

WOW! I didnt know you could buy oxbow online - i thought you got it at a vets office.

I just came across it during a quick Google search, I also managed to find some at VetUK, which is where I buy my cats food. She needs specially formulated food because she's got an extremely sensitive tummy.

It should arrive Saturday and hopefully Wreckerz will like it!

 

[XoVictoryXo]

Good luck with him! keep us posted

 

[cricket4u]

There is a reason behind this!

Directions for Use: As a general guideline, mix 2 parts Carnivore Care to 1 part warm water. The volume of water may be adjusted to obtain optimal feeding consistency. Amounts are general guidelines and should be adjusted based on patient condition. Divide into 2-4 feedings or as indicated by your veterinarian. Water should be available to the animal at all times.

Individual needs will vary with age, genetics, activity level, and medical condition. Consult with a veterinarian for specific directions.

Carnivore Care should only be purchased from licensed veterinarians.
Oxbow Animal Health | Carnivore Care

It would be smart to have your gecko evaluated by a reptile vet first.

 

[cricket4u]

There is a reason behind this!

Directions for Use: As a general guideline, mix 2 parts Carnivore Care to 1 part warm water. The volume of water may be adjusted to obtain optimal feeding consistency. Amounts are general guidelines and should be adjusted based on patient condition. Divide into 2-4 feedings or as indicated by your veterinarian. Water should be available to the animal at all times.

Individual needs will vary with age, genetics, activity level, and medical condition. Consult with a veterinarian for specific directions.

Carnivore Care should only be purchased from licensed veterinarians.
Oxbow Animal Health | Carnivore Care

It would be smart to have your gecko evaluated by a reptile vet first.

I'm just pointing out the red flags. I am not belittling you in any way.

At one point she was dragging a twitching leg

Lethargy

Not eating

You have kept him out of the enclosure for 2 hours- very bad idea

No thermostat

Double the size urates compared to feces-especially in a gecko who has not been eating is not good. (excess uric acid)

You were alternating with Calcium with D3 and multivitamins- and providing UVB

The supplement states a pinch per kilo(body weight) of animal. How much does a leo weigh?

I cannot tell you what to do with your gecko, however I'm a bit concerned about the amount of protein you will be providing while his uric acid appears to be elevated. My main concern is her kidneys and so if you can find a very experienced vet, it would be best to discuss the situation with the vet.

 

[bud1988]

Hi Captn', just noticed that in post #7 you said Wreckerz UTH was posted to the wall of his viv'?