egg bound?

[@marko@]

i looked in my cage this afternoon, and saw the female laying her first egg of the clutch. i took it out and placed it in the incubator and then left her alone to lay the second. now, several hours later, she still hasnt laid her second so i checked to see if she is carrying one and she is. she doesnt seem to be in pain, and accepted some food when i offered it. how long should i wait to see if an egg is passed before taking her to a vet?

here is a pic of the scene:

shes gotten pretty skinny while holding the clutch. but im feeding her as much as she is willing to eat, so i think she will be ok nutritionally (and im dusting her food with Ca and multivitamins including vit D3).

 

[Saskia]

I am not sure what would be the max time between eggs from the same clutch, however, for future clutches I would advice leaving her alone until she is done because disturbing her in the middle of the process could cause issues, like MAYBE this case, hopefully she will lay it soon enough, best of lucks

 

[Embrace Calamity]

She looks awfully thin. Don't get me wrong, I've never bred and know little about it, but of all the pics of gravid females I've seen, I've never seen any look that thin. I hope someone can give you ideas about the egg.

~Maggot

 

[@marko@]

her tail does. it was thicker a while ago, but she went off feed for the past week and a half, and thats when it really shrunk. but from everything ive found, its not uncommon for them to not eat for a while before laying. afterwords ill give her lots of roaches and crix and beef her back up for the next clutch.

 

[@marko@]

her abdomen has gotten some dark discoloration today - like bruising, and she is refusing food. im gonna call a vet tomorrow and get a consult see what he/she thinks.

 

[Muffins94]

Good I recommend a vet visit ASAP

 

[Saskia]

Did she lay?? What happened?? darkening in the abdomen is not a good signal

 

[@marko@]

i took her to a vet a few days ago. he took xrays, revealing 2 eggs... on slightly smaller than the other. so another egg has formed next to the bound one. so he sent me to a specialist. saw the specialist and he recommended surgery over percutaneous ovocentisis. but first i got her a shot of oxytocin. did nothing
i spoke to a professor i work with at my university (we study lizards) about it, and went to call the vet to schedule surgery, but he was out. i was told to call back at 8am tomorrow and be ready to bring her in after the conversation. of course first ill need a survival/success rate and a price to decide if i will go for it.
im also gonna ask if there is any way they could remove the eggs without destroying them from the uterus after the ovosalpingectomy, so i can try incubating them in case the embryos are still kicking.
ill update you guys when i actually know something.

the good news is the egg she layed is fertile, has vascular development along the shell, and should hatch in a few weeks.

 

[@marko@]

im having some issues getting the vet on the phone. but i should get ahold of him sometime today.
an odd new development occurred: she layed an egg.
but i dont know if its the older one dystocic one that by some miracle passed, or the newer one, now fully developed being layed normally. ive attached a shot of her original xray to show you guys the two eggs. the one on the right is slightly larger, so i think thats the dystotic one. but im not examining her to find out which is still inside her, since she doesnt need the added stress and there is nothing i can do about it anyway.

 

[Saskia]

How many days between the first egg and the second??

 

[@marko@]

19 days.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

here is a pic of the scene:

shes gotten pretty skinny while holding the clutch. but im feeding her as much as she is willing to eat, so i think she will be ok nutritionally (and im dusting her food with Ca and multivitamins including vit D3).

Very curious what powder this is in this large dish to the right of your gecko.

What supplements are you dusting with? Please mention brand names and frequencies.

Hornworms are a nutritious way to add some bulk.

 

[@marko@]

light dusting on 8 out of 10 bugs of a 50/50 mix of repcal and herptivite.
the dish contains a mix of repcal and CaCO3.

too late for hornworms. she hasnt eaten willingly since a few days before she became egg bound. i forcefeed some repashys MRP every few days. its for geckos, but omnivorous geckos. so its not optimal, but the vet said its good, since its good enough nutritionally and much better than nothing. she is still wasting away quick. lost 10 grams last week, and is now at just over 40g... im calling the vet again to discuss surgery vs ovocentisis vs euthanasia.

 

[cricket4u]

light dusting on 8 out of 10 bugs of a 50/50 mix of repcal and herptivite.
the dish contains a mix of repcal and CaCO3.

too late for hornworms. she hasnt eaten willingly since a few days before she became egg bound. i forcefeed some repashys MRP every few days. its for geckos, but omnivorous geckos. so its not optimal, but the vet said its good, since its good enough nutritionally and much better than nothing. she is still wasting away quick. lost 10 grams last week, and is now at just over 40g... im calling the vet again to discuss surgery vs ovocentisis vs euthanasia.

Why have you waited this long? Don't give up on her. Many leos make it through surgery. Why did the vet not give you nutritional support for Carnivore's at least?

I suggest that you stop using Repcal and Herptivite. Repcal contains too much d3 and Herptivite contains Beta carotene instead of VItamin A acetate.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Very curious what powder this is in this large dish to the right of your gecko.

What supplements are you dusting with? Please mention brand names and frequencies.

Hornworms are a nutritious way to add some bulk.

light dusting on 8 out of 10 bugs of a 50/50 mix of repcal and herptivite.
the dish contains a mix of repcal and CaCO3.

too late for hornworms. she hasnt eaten willingly since a few days before she became egg bound. i forcefeed some repashys MRP every few days. its for geckos, but omnivorous geckos. so its not optimal, but the vet said its good, since its good enough nutritionally and much better than nothing. she is still wasting away quick. lost 10 grams last week, and is now at just over 40g... im calling the vet again to discuss surgery vs ovocentisis vs euthanasia.

Why have you waited this long? Don't give up on her. Many leos make it through surgery. Why did the vet not give you nutritional support for Carnivore's at least?

Oxbow's Carnivore Care is an all-in-one powdered food for reptiles off food. Many vets carry this. It can also be ordered off Amazon and fed as per vet instruction.

I suggest that you stop using Repcal and Herptivite. Repcal contains too much d3 and Herptivite contains Beta carotene instead of VItamin A acetate.

Best to use Zoo Med's Reptivite with D3/A acetate and Zoo Med's Repti-Calcium with D3.

Is there Herptivite in the dish too? Best never to leave anything but maybe a very small bottle cap of plain calcium carbonate in the tank.

 

[@marko@]

Why have you waited this long? Don't give up on her. Many leos make it through surgery. Why did the vet not give you nutritional support for Carnivore's at least?

I suggest that you stop using Repcal and Herptivite. Repcal contains too much d3 and Herptivite contains Beta carotene instead of VItamin A acetate.

i havent waited this long.
ive took her to my local vet who referred me to a specialist. and then i saw the specialist and he gave her an oxytocin injection. then he gave her another one after she passed her other new egg. and told me to call him this week and let him know how it went and then we will proceed from there.
i added euthanasia to that list, simply because she has lost a lot of body condition, and is clearly doing very poorly. if the vet asks for $1000 for surgery, and it only has a 60% chance of her surviving; then thats not an option. and according to him, percutaneous ovocentisis doesnt work that well since the egg can adhere to the uterine wall, and the longer its there, the likelier it has adhered. i will weigh the pros and cons and make a choice.
are leopard geckos unable to use carotenes? carotenes are just 2 retinoids stuck end to end, while animal-formed Vit As are single retinoids.

Best to use Zoo Med's Reptivite with D3/A acetate and Zoo Med's Repti-Calcium with D3.

Is there Herptivite in the dish too? Best never to leave anything but maybe a very small bottle cap of plain calcium carbonate in the tank.

im using herptivite and repcal since thats what was recommended in Trempers book. and a few years ago everyone was saying to leave a dish of Ca for them to lick...
but if this is the new info, ill follow it. though im not really worried about that right now.
and i dont think that caused the problem (not to say it cant in the future, so i will correct it). not enough calcium can make the eggs bind together and make them too large to pass. but she is only unilaterally dystotic which i can only find 1 other report of - so its a very odd circumstance.

 

[@marko@]

Persephone has passed away. RIP
As soon as i noticed, i removed the egg myself, since it could still be viable (it was fertilized after all) and it would need air flow now that the mothers body isnt providing O2 via bloodflow. it was VERY adhered to the uterine wall - i had to scrape the uterus off. now its in the incubator and hopefully the little embryo can make it. it has the texture of a fertile, viable egg. ill candle it in a few days and see if there is any development inside. all 3 eggs are in their own containers of vermiculite, so there is no possibility for contamination of the other eggs if this one rots.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Persephone has passed away. RIP
As soon as i noticed, i removed the egg myself, since it could still be viable (it was fertilized after all) and it would need air flow now that the mothers body isnt providing O2 via bloodflow. it was VERY adhered to the uterine wall - i had to scrape the uterus off. now its in the incubator and hopefully the little embryo can make it. it has the texture of a fertile, viable egg. ill candle it in a few days and see if there is any development inside. all 3 eggs are in their own containers of vermiculite, so there is no possibility for contamination of the other eggs if this one rots.

May Persephone rest in peace. Hope that her last egg is good.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

i havent waited this long.
ive took her to my local vet who referred me to a specialist. and then i saw the specialist and he gave her an oxytocin injection. then he gave her another one after she passed her other new egg. and told me to call him this week and let him know how it went and then we will proceed from there.
i added euthanasia to that list, simply because she has lost a lot of body condition, and is clearly doing very poorly. if the vet asks for $1000 for surgery, and it only has a 60% chance of her surviving; then thats not an option. and according to him, percutaneous ovocentisis doesnt work that well since the egg can adhere to the uterine wall, and the longer its there, the likelier it has adhered. i will weigh the pros and cons and make a choice.
are leopard geckos unable to use carotenes? carotenes are just 2 retinoids stuck end to end, while animal-formed Vit As are single retinoids.

im using herptivite and repcal since thats what was recommended in Trempers book. and a few years ago everyone was saying to leave a dish of Ca for them to lick...
but if this is the new info, ill follow it. though im not really worried about that right now.
and i dont think that caused the problem (not to say it cant in the future, so i will correct it). not enough calcium can make the eggs bind together and make them too large to pass. but she is only unilaterally dystotic which i can only find 1 other report of - so its a very odd circumstance.

I really appreciate you elaborating on the vet assistance you got for Persephone.

It is suggested that gravid leos NOT go off feeding for more than 1 week.

Although I do not have the link to the study, it was found (2010 ?) that chameleons do not metabolize beta carotene. Could this extend to leopard geckos? Research on geckos is quite limited. To play it safer I recommend the Zoo Med products.

Rep-Cal is a brand name. Rep-Cal produces Herptivite, calcium with D3, and plain calcium carbonate. Zoo Med's Reptivite also contains vitamin A acetate, important for eye and skin health.

How recent was that Tremper book (multiple authors?)? Sometimes only a few things get updated and the book still contains "old" info like hot rocks recommendations and sand recs. What works for someone does not work best always.

Some knowledgeable people have been ditching the 24/7 plain calcium carbonate recommendation for years, at least for non-gravid leos.

One of the 65 posts following my Leo Caresheet compares the D3 levels of some of the popular calcium with D3 powders. You may wish to check that out.

dystotic = dystocic ?