Leopard Gecko with a Skinny Tail

[brecqueg]

Back in May I was given 3 juvenile Leopard Geckos by one of my students. Two were female and one male. I gave the male to a very responsible, well deserving, friend of the family. Therefore, I have the 2 females. They have been doing really well (eating well, skin looked good, and tail width was pretty good) up until about a week and a half ago. At that time, I noticed that the bigger of the two had lost weight in her tail and was starting to stay out of the hideaway they have during the day. Her tail has gotten pretty thin not absolutely sickly, but enough to cause me concern. Her body still looks healthy though. They eat crickets and she has access to them (the other isn't bullying her out of a meal). Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks for the help!

 

[GeckoManiac91]

Hello and Welcome to GU Please fill out this Heath Questionnaire so we can get more details and find out what could be wrong
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...68527-helping-your-sick-gecko-read-first.html

 

[brecqueg]

General Information
Species of lizard: Leopard Gecko
Gecko's name: Avery
Morph:
Gender: Female
Age: About 10 months
Weight:
Total length: About 7-8 inches from tip of nose to tip of tail
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it:5-6 inches
Source (pet store, breeder, previous owner): Previous owner's niece
Captive bred or wild caught: Captive bred

Vivarium
Enclosure dimensions (length x width x heighth): 2.5 ft x 1 ft x 1 ft
Cage (type, size): Terrarium
Substrate provided: Calcium enriched sand (given by owner)
Types of hiding places provided: Hideaway rocks
Is there a humidity hide? location? No, spray tank with spray bottle not to where substrate is soaked
Please describe any other furnishings: Warming rock, basking dish and water dish
List recent changes in the environment, if any: None recently. Moved 3 months ago.

Lighting
Artificial lighting
Incandescent (“screw-in” bulbs): wattage(s): Night light bulb
Fluorescent (tube bulbs):
Access to ambient daylight from a distant window: 3 inches from window.

Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage? No
What type and brand of thermometer (digital with probe, temperature gun, LCD strip, analog (circle), combo digital thermometer/hygrometer, stainless steel aquarim type, other):
What is the ground temperature right on the substrate under the warm dry hide:
What is the air temperature on the warm end about 4 inches up from the ground:
What is the air temperature on the cool end about 4 inches up from the ground:
What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (Under Tank Heater, heat light, ceramic heat emitter, Flexwatt heat tape, hot rock, other): Warming rock
Ventilation space for your UTH by elevating the tank above the shelf (some UTHs come with sticky feet for the tank corners):
Are you using a thermostat(s)?
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time? Hiding rock that covers part of the warming rock
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much?

Humidity
Is the humidity measured?
Humidity range:

Diet
Insects and worms, list type: small crickets
Regular diet fed to the insects and worms: crickets bought weekly. fed at pet store with calcium enriched cricket feed
Are the insects and worms formally “gutloaded” 1-2 days prior to feeding off to your gecko? If so with?
How often do you feed your gecko? 45 crickets fed once a week. Geckos don't eat all at once. The crickets last through an entire week.
Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often?
What calcium brand are you using? with D3, without or both?
Is the calcium in the tank with D3 or without?
Multivitamins (include brand name)?
Please list any recent additions/changes in the diet:

General Health
If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs:
Is your gecko’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased? normal
Is your gecko’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased? somewhat normal
Have you noticed any of the following?
Weight (loss or gain):loss of weight from tail
Discharge from the eyes or nose:no
Increased breathing rate or effort: no
Change in the droppings: no
Urates
---white or yellowish: white
---size of urates as compared to size of feces: ABout half to 3 quarters
Abnormal skin color or shedding: no
Parasites on the skin or in the feces: no
Weakness: no

Previous problems and/or illnesses: none

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household
List other animals that are kept in the same cage: none
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months): none
Are any of your other pets ill? no

 

[GeckoManiac91]

Thank you for filling out that health questionnaire, I know it can be long It would also help if you attached pictures of the enclosure you are using.
Are the females kept together in the same cage? You really should separate them to better monitor Avery's health condition. A 20gallon isn't large enough for two leopard geckos either. How many hides are you providing and where in the tank exactly?

Please remove the sand ASAP. Calcium sand is the worst, geckos will intentionally digest it which greatly increases the risk for impaction. Tiles are a great substrate! In the mean time, before you can get your hands in some nice tiles perhaps, I would just use paper towel.

A humid hide is needed. Spraying the tank simply won't do They need a place to shed with higher humidity than the rest of the tank. The humid hide also helps hydrate your leopard gecko.

Hot rocks are a no-no, overheat very easily and are not safe. You need an UTH controlled by a thermostat. The UTH should cover 1/3 of the tank and will aid in digestion. The surface temperature on the warm side should be between 88-95 when taken with a good quality digital thermometer with a probe.

You need to monitor temperatures. Very important in digestion and healthy thermoregulation.
All temperatures should be taken with a digital thermometer and one with a probe should be used to measure surface temperature.
Warm side surface temperature: 88-95
Warm side air temperature (4inches above substrate): 80-85
Cool side air temperature (4inches above substrate): 70-75


Crickets should be taken out within an hour, not left in the whole week. Put in about 5 or 6 small crickets every night (for a juvinelle) and remove any uneaten ones within the hour.

Are you using a multivitamin and calcium dust? You did not show any mention of this

I highly suggest you take a look at Elizabeth's Leopard Gecko Care Sheet linked below.
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...-demo-video-4-jan-2013-update.html#post302242

I'm sorry but there are many things off with your husbandry

I hope you are willing to take the steps to correct this and better the life for these geckos, they are living creatures that value life as well

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Welcome to Geckos Unlimited. Many thanks for posting for assistance with your leos and for promptly completing our Health Questionnaire.

1) How about sharing pictures of BOTH leos from the top down and of their bellies?
2) Be sure to have a warm, moist hide on the warm end of the tank.
3) Best to separate these guys asap and follow ALL recommendations GeckoManiac91 has suggested .

Proper temperatures and the monitoring of such is crucial to digestion. Lacking proper belly heat leos will fail to thrive. Avery is not doing well at all :-(.

Spraying is stressful for leos. How about making a humid hide out of any opaque plastic container? You can use wet paper towels as the substrate for the moist hide.


PS: Crickets need to be fed all the time in order to be nutritious feeders for our geckos. Some ideas for cricket care:
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...-feeding-issues/68574-cricket-guidelines.html

Urates should be no more than 1/2 the size of the feces.

 

[brecqueg]

Some things for people to keep in mind. 1) Not everyone is an "expert." 2) Everyone has to start somewhere with learning new things. 3) Even "experts" make mistakes or don't know as much as they would like to think they do.

Though I appreciate the rapid responses, no one gave me an even possible answer to my problem. I do appreciate that I was told not to use sand, however, honestly, where do you think I got the idea from? The breeder that sent them to me through my student sent an "entire set up" and said I "(didn't) need anything else." They were sent to me with sand. Their parents had been on sand. And when I asked others, I was told that "as long as it isn't fine sand, like playground sand, it's fine." Therefore, I do not appreciate being treated as though I didn't attempt to find out what I should do to properly care for these little ones. I have worked with other reptiles, but this is the first time for Leopard Geckos.

Next, though you all had great ideas about reptile terrarium set up, there are some things you don't know about. When I said I have a warming rock, it is actually a warming rock. I am a biologist and worked with a herpetologist who gave me the warming rock. I know the dangers of HEATING rocks. That is why I specified WARMING rock. Warming rocks do not get near as warm as heating rocks. They do not burn the animal and I have seen them used in multiple rehabilitation situations. Warming rocks mimic a basking rock that has been in morning sun, not hot afternoon "I'm gonna burn your face off" sun.

Finally, though yes I appreciate the responses, someone could have given an idea as to how to encourage her to eat, how to check and see if she was impacted, how to clear impaction if that was the case, etc. Instead I was met with a clear emotion of 'you don't know what you are doing' and a guilt trip "I hope you are willing to take the steps to correct this and better the life for these geckos, they are living creatures that value life as well." This was very offensive. Clearly I asked a question about the health of the little one instead of saying to myself "oh, it will clear up on its own. She'll be fine." So, I know the value of their lives. And the "they are living creatures that value life as well" was the most disturbing of all. If someone is asking for help, it is not your job to make them feel stupid and uneducated for asking. Clearly, they were unsure as to the situation at hand and that is why they asked. As an educator, I would like to point out that this is precisely the situation that makes it to where kids don't want to ask questions and just struggle through situations.

I do appreciate the informational statements such as "urates should be no more than 1/2 the size of the feces." Etc. In the future, I do hope that you will keep in mind that 1) people ask questions because they are unsure and trying to remedy a situation or trying to learn more information on the situation. 2) Everyone has to start somewhere on their journey to knowledge. 3) No one is exempt from making mistakes.

 

[cassicat4]

Three of the most common and possible causes for a thin tail, anorexia, lethargy, etc:

-Impaction (hence the advice to remove sand, which, while certain kinds can be used, is strongly recommended against, especially for young geckos, because it poses a notorious impaction risk. Leos are clumsy hunters, and it is not unusual for them to wind up with a mouthful of substrate when hunting. As well, calcium sand is THE worst type of sand that can be used with any leopard geckos (and reptile species). Many keepers have even fought to have it banned for sale because of the risks associated with it. As for leos, they are known to lick calcium from a bowl as needed, so calcium sand is just temptation. In cases where sand can be used, a playsand/soil combination is recommended as one of the safest options). Impaction is not always obvious. You have to examine husbandry and care (low temperatures and dehydration will contribute to this), and it often requires a vet visit to positively identify. In some cases, say sand impaction, you can sometimes feel a hard lump in the lower abdomen. You can also check the lower abdomen for a very dark patch. However, in many cases, a physical exam will not yield results. X-rays are often required. Impaction doesn't occur overnight; it builds up in the system until it forms a blockage, and then you have a medical emergency on your hands.

-illness (e.g. parasites)

-stress/injury

If this were me, I would be making a vet visit ASAP. In your descriptions, there are causes for concern. The advice provided is legitimate, and excellent for long-term care, but I've rarely seen a gecko in the condition yours is in who can be treated successfully at home without veterinary intervention. If any of the three situations I've mentioned above are the cause of the anorexia and depleted fat reserves, there will be no "getting her to eat". She needs treatment first and foremost, as all of these conditions have put her off eating, and for good reason. At best, force-feeding her will only exacerbate the problem.

Remember that anyone and their dog can be a breeder. Being one does not make them an "expert" in care. Having a gecko long-term "that has never had a problem" is not necessarily indicative of good care either. The best advice I can give, now that you've been provided with options, is do some research yourself so you can decide for yourself if your care is adequate.

 

[XoVictoryXo]

whoa... lets all calm down a bit.
The main cause for an ill reptile is incorrect husbandry. for the record we have ALL been guilty of making mistakes and have learned from them. Now... what we see here is an extremely skinny gecko, which causes us all some major concern and honestly it gets a bit emotional as we simply just care for the gecko and we see this all the time. So lets try to help you correct some husbandry issues first and then try to get to the underlying problem.
#1. She needs to be seen by a herp vet and fecal checked for parasites and crypto and if possible you can have an xray to check sand impaction.

2. The geckos need to be separated immediately, they do not do well with companions. also, if one has a fatal disease, the other may have caught it. Or, if she is being bullied and it has stressed her out- it has caused her to stop eating.

3. After you check her for parasites, separate her, and update her husbandry to the caresheet advice... try to administer some liquid nutrients (Reptaboost; oxbow; )

4. Some of us have had electrical items go haywire and burn reptiles, we would not want that to happen to your girl. so we dont recommend any warm/hot rocks. what we recommend is a heat mat connected to a thermostat. and Also you can place a UV bulb over a hide to impersonate a hot rock without the haywire burn factor!

5. 3 hides are imperative, Cool, Humid/Moist & Warm. Tupperware containers work best for humid hides.

6. Personally had a horrible and almost fatal experience with sand. I recommend using ceramic tile you can get from any home depot or loews, cheap, easy to clean and pretty.

 

[Aimless]

brecqueg, I know what you mean and I'm sorry this experience has not been very positive for you. personally, I like cassicat's advice, but I'm certainly no Leo expert.

to everyone else here, please remember that presenting care alternatives as "you must..." "you have to...." is going to cause defensiveness on the part of the poster, because quite frankly the way this advice is couched is very condescending. if I were brecqueg, I would be annoyed too.

and no matter how much you love your geckos and wish to help a keeper (and his gecko) benefit from prior mistakes, please remember that there is more than one way to keep them and that deviation from the one, single caresheet linked above is not always a "mistake"


so....my .02: aside from cassi's advice, I would say that IMO she looks pretty bad. aside from her tail, her skull bones are rather prominent as well and her limbs are very thin. often geckos (and other herps) don't really show that they "feel" bad until they're really not well at all, so the fact that she's not eating is really a pretty serious indicator. this is the main reason everyone is coming on so strongly; they're very worried about your gecko.


so - you don't see the other girl bullying her, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. pushing her out of the safest/best temperature/ideal spot, i.e. the hide, would indicate bullying and probably means your girl is very stressed, especially if this is different from "normal".

is it possible to put her in her own cage, at least until she is better? as in everything else, recuperating is very slow with geckos and it might take some time before she's really back up to snuff.

 

[brecqueg]

Thank you for understanding my irritation. I waited a few days to respond so I wouldn't be brash with what I was saying and I was actually quite calm when I wrote what I did.

Going with the breeder they came from, just from what I have been told by my student recently, it is possible that the two I have were inbred. Can this cause some of the problems such as the skull bones etc? The reason I ask is all three that were given to me (one given to a family friend) had the same skull shape.

Just so you know what I have done to try to help:
They are separated.
They do have a humidity box. They already had one, I just didn't know that's what the description was asking for. It's made out of a plastic container and saphgum moss.
I did take them off the sand. They are only on paper towel right now as I live 3.5 hours away from the nearest city.
I have been giving them both warm water soaks hoping that it will encourage any possible blockage to void.
I spoke to a vet and was told that I could feed her with an eyedropper in hopes to keep her hydration up. They told me pedialite and chicken baby food with the repCal I use. My question is how much is too much? I have worked with some species of herps in the past and can get her to open her mouth very easily (not by forcing it for the record). I just don't know how much I should give her.
I do have an appointment for her, but I can't get her in for at least another week (no openings and my location make it hard to do any better). Is there anything else I can do for her in the meantime?

 

[cassicat4]

Skull bones (and body structure) are certainly defined by genetics, but in terms of inbreeding, there have not been any definitive studies that have established deformities as a result of inbreeding other than the risks associated with certain morphs (e.g. Enigmas, albinos). Aimless's comment in regards to the skull bones and skinny limbs was more of an attribution to her lack of fat reserves and probable dehydration (which makes bones and limbs stick out more). If the whole gecko family is present with the same skull shape, however, then genetics is likely playing a large part of what we can see in the picture in terms of head shape. However, your gecko does appear dehydrated as well (which often correlates with anorexia).

Along with the warm water soaks, you can try belly massages. Gently rub from the top of her torso all the way to the vent, concentrating on the right half of her body (where the stomach is located). This can help stimulate digestion and get some blockages moving, if that's the cause of your gecko's issues. In the event your gecko isn't impacted, this process certainly won't hurt your gecko.

You didn't mention your temperature ranges, but in your gecko's condition, I would strive to keep your temperatures at the max end of the range around the clock. Higher temps stimulate the immune system, so in the event illness is at play, this can aid in recovery. If blockage is a factor, higher temperatures can also help with digestion. Ensure the moist hide is kept humid, as higher temperatures will dry this out quicker and you don't want your gecko becoming more dehydrated in the process.

The vet should have given you an idea of how much to feed your gecko (as well as how often - once a day, twice a day?) but in the meantime, I would say to strive for one eyedropper full once a day for now. It wouldn't hurt to call back and confirm though.

Finally, refrain from handling your gecko except for feedings and warm water soaks (or to check on your gecko if a concern arises). Even the most tolerant geckos are often somewhat stressed by handling, and you'll want to keep your gecko's stress to the absolute minimum while she is ailing.

If you manage to get a fecal sample prior to your vet visit (within a day prior) ensure you take that along as well for testing.

 

[Aimless]

^again, I agree. this is all good. soaking will help to rehydrate your gecko as well, and if she feels better hopefully her appetite will come back!

I have re-hab'd geckos who needed assist feeds. I am glad she opens her mouth easily for you how does her mouth look inside? healthy pink, no signs of irritation or injury? when a gecko is not in the greatest of shape they're more inclined to pick up opportunistic stuff. I hope she doesn't have any mouthrot, as it will make your life easier if she's not fighting a sore mouth too.

hmmm...as for amount. IME, especially if it's been awhile, they'll often regurge what you try to feed. so however much you give her, I would start very slowly. like, a few drops..wait several hours...a few drops again. there's no rush to stuff her full, especially if there's any risk at all of impaction.

have you found a recent poop from her, since separating? if you see a poop she's probably not impacted or not severely impacted (if it's really dry or has a bunch of sand in it its a different story, but either way moving bowels is good if she hasn't been eating).

I don't know what you have available, but I've also had vets recommend A/D and also insectivore care that you can get on Amazon, or this carnivore care (from Oxbow; also off Amazon for convenience) that can be added to water and syringe-fed.

hopefully she is just stressed by her roommate picking on her. if they are juveniles, even if they've always gotten along and are both female they can easily become intolerant of each other as they approach sexual maturity. I hope this is the case, and not something like crypto or parasitic infection which is sometimes treatable, but will mean a longer road to full recovery.

and yes - cassi's comment about the skull shape was right. I meant that the bones at the back of her jaw are prominent because she's very thin, not that the shape is wrong. possible her two companions are also a little thin, if this seems normal to you and these Leos are the most of your experience? it's hard to judge looking at photos online, as so many people keep their geckos kind of fat, but maybe her companions are also a little on the thin side.

good luck with her, and please keep us posted.

 

[GeckoManiac91]

I apologize to brecqueg and anyone else in this thread I didn't believe my post came off the way you took it but looking back I see why you took offense to it. I will take the suggestions from what you and Aimless have said and learn from this experience so as to not encounter this confusion and problem in the future again. I've never, ever intended to come off rude in any posts and I'm terribly sorry

Please do not look at me, or GU, in a negative matter because of this incident.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hello brecqueg ~

Good to hear that you have separated them and that they are no longer on sand .

I spoke to a vet and was told that I could feed her with an eyedropper in hopes to keep her hydration up. They told me pedialite and chicken baby food with the repCal I use. My question is how much is too much? I have worked with some species of herps in the past and can get her to open her mouth very easily (not by forcing it for the record). I just don't know how much I should give her.
I do have an appointment for her, but I can't get her in for at least another week (no openings and my location make it hard to do any better). Is there anything else I can do for her in the meantime?

Good question. I don't know exactly how much food would be best right now. Any chance the vet can advise based upon Avery's weight? Thing is, any gecko who is dehydrated needs to be hydrated prior to actual feeding. Two powdered all-in-one foods which can be ordered online are: Oxbow's Carnivore Care and Fluker's Repti+Boost. Either of these is more nutritionally balanced than chicken baby food mixed with Pedialyte and Rep-Cal.

Proper temperatures are huge. Leos depend upon belly heat for digestion.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

These are frequently recommended temperatures for keeping leos regardless of size:
88-93 F (31-34 C) ground temp at warm end inside the warm dry hide
no greater than 85 F (29.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
no greater than 75 F (24.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

Leave the UTH on 24/7. Can turn off overhead heating at night.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

It is very important that they be monitored with a digital thermometer with a probe.

Something else you can do:
Please share pictures of both leos from the top down and underneath. I have been concerned about both of them since you first posted. The reason I requested pictures before is that I was looking to see whether there are any dark areas on their bellies.

Is the Rep-Cal you have the calcium with or without vitamin D3? Have you been using it in the past too? Are you supplementing with multivitamins?

I can post the instructions recommended by my vet for collecting a fecal sample if you would like.

 

[brecqueg]

Hello All,
Thank you for your responses. I will try to respond to all questions etc. The vet said to work up to twice a day but didn’t specify how much at a time, so I am going to go with the few drops and wait a bit and try again. It’s quite possible that the entire family of geckos were under weight because the photos of the parents I saw had them looking the same as the three that were given to me. I asked the friend about the male I gave her and he looks the same, however she feeds him more than I ever read the recommended dose was, so I don’t know.
Hydration: both have had and still have complete access to plenty of fresh water. Avery doesn’t seem to be interested in it at this point in time, however.
Temperature: Both have under tank heaters. The gecko that I’m not as concerned about doesn’t like it and stays away from that side of the tank. The other doesn’t seem to have a preference. Working on thermometers (I gave all mine away except for field thermometers when I left my position with the Forest Service :/ Hind sight is 20:20)
Impaction/Parasites/Mouth Health: Avery does have a dark spot on her stomach that is hard. I figured it was probably impaction before I asked, I just didn’t know what to do about it. I am continuing with the warm water soaks which she seems to like and have massaged down her stomach as well. When they were brought to me, I wasn’t terribly concerned about their weight seeing that all three looked pretty much the same and they looked a lot like the ones I went to see at PetsMart and PetCo. Now, I’m not so sure. I have other reptiles and amphibians and they are all much better with weight and putting on weight (all different species however). Her mouth looks fine. No signs of injury or sores. From the work I have done with parasites, there is no current evidence of ectoparasites and I can’t tell about the crypto since it is a protozoan :/ From what I know of the symptoms, some of them overlap with impaction and other things, so I’m not 100% sure.
Rep-Cal: The calcium powder does have D3 and I also use a multivitamin powder. Always have used them since I have them on hand.
Feeding the Soupy Stuff: She took a few drops this afternoon and didn’t regurgitate it so far. She still has complete access to fresh water.
Feces: No recent poops from her. Therefore, I don’t have a fecal sample at this time. I think I remember how to collect the sample, but a refresher never hurts.
Thanks again for all the help. Still working on it, no definite solution yet :/

 

[Aimless]

I am glad she is not regurging! For fecals the most important things are to collect fresh and refrigerate. I hope the soaks will move things down.

 

[brecqueg]

From my description, does it sound like impaction to you too?

 

[cassicat4]

From my description, does it sound like impaction to you too?

A dark spot on the stomach/abdomen that feels solid is not something that is present in a normal, healthy gecko, so yes, impaction is a definite possibility. Do you have a picture of the spot by any chance?

You may want to consider offering mineral oil by mouth at the same time as feeding. This can help lube things up and possibly pass any blockages. However, if it is an impaction, and it's due to sand, these blockages are very hard to pass as they don't break down in the gecko's system. Continue with the warm water soaks and belly massages, and hope for the best until you can get into the vet.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Pictures of the bellies will be very helpful (and the leos). I feel it is better to know than not to know. Wish to be sure which "dark spot" we speak of.

Usage of calcium with vitamin D3 needs to be very carefully monitored. The Rep-Cal brand has by far the highest concentration of vitamin D3 of all formulations. (Check the posts following the Leo Caresheet for some comparisons among the different brands.)

There is some thought that coating the intestines with mineral oil will block the absorption of nutrients :-(.

 

[brecqueg]

I wish I could post a picture of her stomach and the other one, but my phone fried so I no longer have the ability. Will continue with what the vet recommended until she can look at her.

I don't leave calcium or multivitamins in the terrariums 24/7. I was advised to dust the food lightly with it to prevent bone problems.