newbie questions

[JadeSparrow]

I've been cruising through the site for a few weeks now and finally brought home a leo. I have basic supplies right now for his/her home but I'm curious if anyone has a preferred brand for UTHs, calcium, and vit supplements. I know I need the calcium without D3 and most likely I am going to order off of amazon, its the easiest for me to get shipped to my house as my local petco is lacking in proper supplies.
next question, in the moist hide I've read of using paper towels and moss. Again this is another which have y'all found works best.
Sorry if most of this has been posted somewhere else that I missed, I just want to make sure that the newest member of our household gets proper care.

 

[Saskia]

Hello and welcome to GU!

Regarding brands, I use ZooMed´s UTH and also Nature´s Heat, they both have worked great for me for several years! The size would depend on your tank¨s size.
And in the calcium/suplement área, I would also advice ZooMed, you can use ZooMed Reptivite with vitamin D3, and Zoomed Plain Calcium and you´ll have it all.

For my moist hides I use paper towels myself, I use a very sturdy one that doesn´t rip off easily, here are some links you can use (theese are all products your pet will need):

Amazon.com: Zoo Med Reptivite, with Vitamin D3, 2-Ounce: Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Zoo Med Calcium Without Vitamin D3 Reptile Food, 3-Ounce: Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Zoo Med ReptiTherm® Under Tank Heater, Medium: Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Zoo Med Reptile Shelter 3 in 1 Cave, Medium: Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Exo Terra Reptile Cave, Medium: Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Hydrofarm MTPRTC Digital Thermostat For Heat Mats: Patio, Lawn & Garden

Best of lucks!

 

[JadeSparrow]

Thank you! Right now I am using a 10 gal tank that I had around the house, but eventually when I get the spaced cleared out that's going to get upgraded. Hides haven't been a problem for me to find since most of them I've had here from what my beardie has out grown, plus I've had fun making stuff out of Styrofoam and grout.
Hehe but now I get to go shopping...you know you shop online to much when the delivery guy knows most of your animals by name ^_^ but I like knowing all my babies have exactly what they need.

 

[cricket4u]

you know you shop online to much when the delivery guy knows most of your animals by name ^_^

:lol: I remember the days that instead of breeding I ordered my crickets. One day, I heard that specific sound that the UPS trucks have and wondered what was taking the guy so long. When I took a look through the window, I noticed him chasing the crickets in the back of the truck! I was laughing so hard that I couldn't breath. It was just the look on his face(priceless) and watching him stomping away. The place did not seal the box correctly, therefore some managed to escape the box.

I wanted to mention that it's best to buy the Reptivite without the D3. There are many way to use them, however, it's really not necessary to have it in both. I think it's safer just to have one bottle with d3.

 

[Saskia]

cricket:

I have not read what you have updated in regards of calcium, and I do not sugest both d3, if you check my post, and the links I provided, only the Reptivite has D3, the calcium is plain, meaning, without D3... (I only provide D3 via Reptivite right now), would you agree that is a good balance??

 

[cricket4u]

cricket:

I have not read what you have updated in regards of calcium, and I do not sugest both d3, if you check my post, and the links I provided, only the Reptivite has D3, the calcium is plain, meaning, without D3... (I only provide D3 via Reptivite right now), would you agree that is a good balance??

Sorry Saskia, I'm not sure I understand your question. If what is balanced?

 

[Saskia]

You know I personally only use Reptivite with D3, that is right now, my only source of calcium, D3 and minerals/vitamins, however, I do have bottles of: ReptiCalcium with D3, ReptiCalcium without D3, even a small one of Repashy Calcium Plus, because even in regards of supplementation, I believe in variety, AND, you never know when a new study of some sort os going to change an opinion, and something new/different will be advised, so, I buy everything when I travel to the US and keep it stocked at home.... the way I understand it, your advice is to use both, Reptivite AND ReptiCalcium (IF you advice the same that Elizabeth does, you advice Reptivite without D3, and ReptiCalcium with D3), and I am saying the opposite here, meaning, I am advising, Reptivite with D3 and Repticalcium without D3, given that they both have the same amount of D3, would that balance be the same to what you advice?? I take D3 with a grain of salt (Not sure if I just used that expresion right :coverlaugh: ) so, I only use it, as I have said many times before, once every two weeks for adults, and once every week for sub adults or growing geckos... but am here advising (kind of like to be on the same page with GU) to provide Reptivite with D3 and ReptiCalcium without D3, my question was if you think that was a good balance??

PS: Because you said you didn´t advice both with D3, and I was clarifying, that I wasn´t sugesting both products with D3, only the Reptivite.

 

[cricket4u]

Saskia......... I know, you have read most of my posts and I know that you know how I feel about supplements! I would not recommend something that I do not use myself.

D3 via supplement

If you were someone that was close (ex:a neighbor), I would try to convince you to change your husbandry all together. I'm not implying that your husbandry is bad, simply that it differs from mine. If it has worked for you for at least ten years (no signs of health problems in your leos), why change it. In other words, it must be working right?

The reason Elizabeth recommends them separately is due to the fact that the multivitamin is much more dangerous at least in my opinion than calcium. Insects provide a fair amount of minerals (not calcium), therefore the risk of excess is much higher.

They're more deficient in calcium, so the reason she feels more calcium is necessary vs. other nutrients. I don't like to speak for anyone. Elizabeth where are you?????

 

[Saskia]

The reason Elizabeth recommends them separately is due to the fact that the multivitamin is much more dangerous at least in my opinion than calcium. Insects provide a fair amount of minerals (not calcium), therefore the risk of excess is much higher

May I ask what is your specific suplementation schedule?? If there is a reason, and it is within my possibilities to improve something, I will for sure do that, as I said, I do own several bottles of calcium , and vitamins, so, if I have the means to improve I will for sure do it, this is what I have:

* ReptiCalcium with D3,

* ReptiCalcium without D3,

* Repashy Calcium Plus,

* Reptivite with D3

I do not have Reptivite without D3 right now (I can ceirtainly buy it, I was in the USA until last night, and my sister will be going there soon, she can get it for me in about a month), and that´s why I hardly ever use calcium + D3, and as I said, only give Reptivite twice a month, so, the amount is not high (I think) either in minerals or D3.

As you know, I provide a varied diet of properly gutloaded insects, that are well fed all their lives (I breed many, and buy more from a friend who sells high quality fed insects - I get from him mostly crickets).

 

[cricket4u]

No and I will explain why. Some people do not have the ability to comprehend a balanced meal, at least not yet. They will read this and try to copy it without realizing that something that may seem unimportant such as UVB can be making all the difference. I may feed insects higher in calcium than someone else, therefore they will require more dusting than what I provide. Makes sense? This happens often and the reason I continue to recommend that people schedule an appointment with a veterinarian so that he/she will guide you based on your leos age, body condition, what insects you can provide, what do you feed the insects, etc.

The space that I provide and all the hide options can make a difference as well(more appropriate thermoregulation, less chances of dehydration). I know it's not what you want to hear and it sucks quite frankly, but it's the truth. Honestly, it makes me feel quite uncomfortable having to say this.

In reality the first year or so bone density should be checked. This will tell you if you're doing a good job or you need to make adjustments. Blood work once they are over 50 grams is ideal. This is the only real way to know if your leos are healthy. If not, you will spend the rest of their days pulling your hair out wondering and stressed. Aside from that, just do the best that you can.

 

[Stormy Leo]

You can get a plastic container and put moss in it for a shed box and zoo med is a good company

 

[Saskia]

I understand, I will not continue to hijack this thread, but I will deff. take your input into consideration, because I believe that I can find a vet that would do blood work, that kind of SPECIFC thing I think I can ask for, what I don´t trust here are the diagnosis or stuff like that, because the do not study or have experience in reptiles, but specific tests like that, I might be able to achieve, thanks! I´ll email you if I come up with specific questions about the tests, in order to get accurate results.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

......

I wanted to mention that it's best to buy the Reptivite without the D3. There are many way to use them, however, it's really not necessary to have it in both. I think it's safer just to have one bottle with d3.

You know I personally only use Reptivite with D3, that is right now, my only source of calcium, D3 and minerals/vitamins, however, I do have bottles of: ReptiCalcium with D3, ReptiCalcium without D3, even a small one of Repashy Calcium Plus, because even in regards of supplementation, I believe in variety, AND, you never know when a new study of some sort os going to change an opinion, and something new/different will be advised, so, I buy everything when I travel to the US and keep it stocked at home.... the way I understand it, your advice is to use both, Reptivite AND ReptiCalcium (IF you advice the same that Elizabeth does, you advice Reptivite without D3, and ReptiCalcium with D3), and I am saying the opposite here, meaning, I am advising, Reptivite with D3 and Repticalcium without D3, given that they both have the same amount of D3, would that balance be the same to what you advice?? I take D3 with a grain of salt (Not sure if I just used that expresion right :coverlaugh: ) so, I only use it, as I have said many times before, once every two weeks for adults, and once every week for sub adults or growing geckos... but am here advising (kind of like to be on the same page with GU) to provide Reptivite with D3 and ReptiCalcium without D3, my question was if you think that was a good balance??

PS: Because you said you didn´t advice both with D3, and I was clarifying, that I wasn´t sugesting both products with D3, only the Reptivite.

Saskia......... I know, you have read most of my posts and I know that you know how I feel about supplements! I would not recommend something that I do not use myself.

D3 via supplement

If you were someone that was close (ex:a neighbor), I would try to convince you to change your husbandry all together. I'm not implying that your husbandry is bad, simply that it differs from mine. If it has worked for you for at least ten years (no signs of health problems in your leos), why change it. In other words, it must be working right?

The reason Elizabeth recommends them separately is due to the fact that the multivitamin is much more dangerous at least in my opinion than calcium. Insects provide a fair amount of minerals (not calcium), therefore the risk of excess is much higher.

They're more deficient in calcium, so the reason she feels more calcium is necessary vs. other nutrients. I don't like to speak for anyone. Elizabeth where are you?????

:feedback: Here I am!

@ Cricket4u - It is my understanding that you use UVB in generously sized enclosures for your leopard geckos. The majority of folks with leopard geckos use supplements instead. You use a custom made feed.

@ Saskia - Any chance of getting radiographs on a couple of your leos to examine bone density? I am very interested in how they are doing when we recommend supplementation so differently. What do you feed your feeders?

Why I recommend what I do:
1. Calcium requires vitamin D3 in order to metabolize. As far as I know this is no secret. The sun does this for humans, yet often additional vitamin D3 is prescribed when our D3 levels are too low. I don't know how long D3 "sticks around" ... how quickly D3 needs replenishing in order to keep the calcium metabolism up.

2. Rep-Cal with D3: 400,000 IU/kg
Repti Calcium with D3: 22,907 IU/kg

For years (really) the only supplement I used was calcium with D3. I used the Rep-Cal brand. The source of vitamins was the food I feed the crickets. Even now, I supplement with Reptivite very infrequently.

In the not so distant past I have used Rep Cal calcium with D3 roughly 2x per week with most my geckos. That has a huge amount of D3 in comparison with the Repti Calcium! I have only noticed problems when I have gotten lax with the D3 supplementation (seizures in hatchling mourning geckos). Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 has such drastically lower D3 levels that I feel very comfortable recommending it like I do. [I do have 2.1 Phelsuma barbouri (about 8 years now) who have always been on UVB (5.0 Reptisuns).]

3. About Zoo Med's Reptivite with or without D3, I could go either way. I am a minimalist when it comes to dusting with multivitamins. Best to feed the feeder the best diet possible 24/7! How can a gecko get enough D3 just by using ONLY a tiny amount of Reptivite with D3 infrequently?

4. Maybe a better question is: How much D3 does a gecko need in order to metabolize all the calcium it needs for good bones?

Saskia ~ You might find mod Hilde's share on vitamins & calcium informative. Check posts #22 and #48 immediately following the Leo Care Sheet linked in my signature. Post #24 offers comparisons of 4 brands of calciums with D3.

Lightly dust crickets/dubia with Zoo Med's supplements like this:
1. Monday - Repti-Calcium with D3 on all crickets
2. Thursday - Repti-Calcium with D3 on all crickets
3. Reptivite (multivitamin) with D3/A acetate adjusted for your leo's weight: Spread out the lightly dusted Reptivite with D3 crickets over the course of a week. Use the Reptivite (multivitamin) very sparingly.

 

[JadeSparrow]

I don't mind the hijacking it was very informative, thank you all for helping to point me in the right direction. I keep repti cal with d3 here at the house already for my bearded dragon and was getting mixed reviews on whether or not my leo needed the d3...yes I know google can be a bad thing, reason I came to ask you very knowledgeable people..I did end up ordering the reptivite with d3 as well which will get thrown into the dusting schedule.

 

[Saskia]

Liz:

X Rays:
Yes!!!! I can for SURE do that, I feel SOOO happy that I can actually DO something here veterinarian-wise!! I know one vet clinic, a very good one that has made XRays for at least one leopard gecko that I know of, this one (Veterinaria Los Chorros - Inicio ), and I know two reptile hobbists/friends of mine, that work there as veterinary technicians, I will schedule an appointment for next week!! Would it have to be a regular XRay?? or should something special be ordered?? I am even excited about this!! I would LOVE to see if my guys are OK, and if they are not, since none of them are showing symptoms, I would be able to make the neccesary adjustments in their feeding/supplementation routine!

Depending on the cost, I will do, at least 3 geckos, more if I can afford it, which ones would you recomend?? I have both sexes and all ages, except for hatchlings or juveniles, I was thinking of taking my grandma leo, MUNCHIES, which is a female, who bred 3 times in her life, and who is somewhere around 12 years of age, was also considering ALI, a male, who is around 5 years of age (has been with me for one year or so), and FIRE who also is a male, and is getting close to turning one year old (he was given to me as a gift from a friend who I gave some Reptivite when he needed it, and he gave him to me last december, he told me he was born in june 2013, so, he is about 9 months)... I thought of those 3, in order to have different ages, would you agree?? or do you think it would be better to take the ones that have been with me for the longest?? I have 2 geckos (one male, one female) who have been with me since 2010 (they were both hatched that year), and they both refuse dusting to the max, they spit out if they feel anything dusted in their mouths, and do not eat if they sense the Reptivite "smell"... it would be interested to see how they are since they are the ones that take the least calcium /D3 ... what do you think????

Feeders:

I am currently breeding: Blaptica dubia, Pycnoscelus surinamensis, Blaberus discoidalis, Tenebrio molitor and Zophoba morio, and I buy on a regular basis (at least one or twice a month) Achetus domesticus and Gryllodes sigillatus, and I provide every now and then, wild caught grasshoppers (I catch them in a wild area, nowhere near pesticides), and lastly, a couple times a year I buy Waxworms to spoil them just a tiny little bit.

For my B. dubia and my B. discoidalis I feed:
Powdered chicken food, mixed with oats and tons of fruits and vegetables (the ones I use more commonly are: Eggplant, oranges, carrots, watermelon, cucumber, bananas, succini, potatoes, mangoes, lettuce and apples).

For my P. surinamensis I feed:
All the vegetables listed above, I have offered the powdered chicked food but they do not eat it.

For my worms I feed:
Their bedding consists of bran, oatmeal and powdered chicken food, I provide hydration via vegetables as well, mostly carrots, potatoes and watermellon.

I must say, I got my first gecko as a gift almost 11 years ago, I knew NOTHING about them, and I made ALL the mistakes you can think of... one of them was that I didn´t provide calcium or supplements of ANY kind for at least the first 3 years she was with me (Munchies, she was already 1 - 2 years old), and it didn´t seem to affect her (apparently), however I witnesed one gecko that had early signs of MBD at 1-2 months of age... that tells me they can be very very different...

Inputs????

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Saskia ~

:cheer: for your input. I am behind on all things GU, so just a few comments right now.

Your leos are very lucky having such a wide variety of homegrown meals. :yahoo: This may be a key. 24/7 diet ranks above dusting!

Excellent on your potential to get x-rays of a couple of your leos: Munchies, Ali, Fire, one of your leos that refuses Reptivite to the max? Maybe one that you've had long term, even since hatchling days as a measure of bone density? Plus maybe one of your rescues that you've had at least a couple years? A "regular" x-ray will show bone density. I had a gecko x-rayed last summer. It was about $110 per x-ray.

Maybe it's that Venuzuela D3 from all your sunshine and their diet?

Since OP JadeSparrow does not seem to mind our OTs, we might continue on this thread.

Click right here for the US Dept Agriculture: Foods List. You can type in most any food and see the nutrients.

My vet does not recommend oatmeal as part of a cricket/B dubia DRY diet. So up until June 2013 I had added oatmeal to the Albers All Purpose Poultry Feed (+ a few other things once in awhile). Carrots....hesitant to say more. Wonder whether you've got their diets down?????

 

[Saskia]

In that case, the selected ones will be:
Munchies, Fire, Randy (son of Munchies, I hatched him myself in 2.010, and he is one of those who refuses dusting), and Betty (rescued in 2.011, she was a sub adult back then, is full grown now, seems healthy and has never been bred, this one: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community/leopard-geckos-general-info-intros-pics/55639-ugly-betty-first-month-recovery-before-after-pics-still-working-her.html ).

A monthly income here is about 35$, if my numbers are right, I think X Rays sould be about 5$ each. (Economy is messed up, if xRays would cost 100$, meaning, 3 monthly salaries, no one would ever do them unless extreme emergency... that´s why it has been tough on me to get the thermostats, I HAVE to buy them in the US because they are not sold here, and they become expensive for me, one whole monthly salary for each...) medicine in general here is less expensive, in comparison, to the US.

All my geckos are in a fully ventilated room with a large window next to them in my mom´s house (tropical weather never allows the temperature to be either too hot or too cold for them, always mid to late 70´s), and they do get sunshine, not directly, but they ceirtainly get some of it, and I have a UVB lamp for my phelsuma, and he is right next to the leos... maybe, at least the ones that are right next to the Phelsuma, get a bit from it as well...

Oatmeal is out then!! Since today, I never provided much of it anyways, but will eliminate it completely! My crickets are bought from this website: ( Exotic-Point ), and I became friends with the breeder, he feeds his crickets a wide variety of vegetables, fresh every day, he doesn´t provide oatmeal, I believe he doesn´t provide chicken food either, I will sugest him that, since it can be easily found and is not expensive.


Wonder whether you've got their diets down????

I don´t uunderstand what you mean by this... ? :roll: Do you mean, if I write down what they eat, how much and when?? That I do, I have calendars for each gecko and I write down how many insects they et each day and what type, also when they shed, or any event that I consider significant, is that what you´d like to see??

 

[Saskia]

Elizabeth:

I just read posts #22 and #48 as you recommended, and now I have a lot info I didn´t have, and have come to the realization that Betty might suffer from vitamin A shortage or might be a hatchling from a Vitamin A deficiency parent, let me explain why:

1) She has a dewlap, since I got her...

2) She is a poor shedder, has always been, her skin used to look "dry", and so, I gave her warm baths often... I ended up providing four moist hides in her enclosure, two are warm, one is in the middle section of her hide and one is cool, she also has a warm dry hide and a cool dry hide, but I want her to have enough humidity in all temperature ranges...

3) She walks funny, I mean, her back legs are like a bit open, for someone with little experience, she looks normal, but after looking at leos every day for years I can tell when something is "odd"... and her walk has always seemed odd to me...








Since she was in such poor condition when I adopted her, I asume she was poorly taken care of, and that kind of things will affect her all her life, she has a decent sight I think, she is a good hunter, she is very docile and has a great apetite all the time (never has gone trough fasting/brumation periods since being with me), I have never bred her, and never will, do you believe she should be more supplemented than my other geckos??

 

[Saskia]

Appointment made!!! I will take 4 geckos, Munchies, Randy, Betty and Fire, Tuesday at 1pm we have the appointment, I asked, and the cost for every xray is about 3$, and the consultation is about 5$, they will charge me for one consultation, and 4 Xrays, so, I will pay about 17$ for everything, my only doubt is it they would have to be put under anesthesia... I would rather not, I will try to figure out some way of immovilizing them, Ideas?? When your gecko had XRays done did he have to be put under?? I don´t trust the vets here putting my guys under because they do not treat geckos regularly, the one xRay that I know for a fact that they did, was performed by a former vet tech who worked there (friend of mine as well), and it was his gecko...

So, theese are the selected ones!!:

Munchies:



Randy:


Fire:

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Saskia ~

You are one thorough lady! :cheer: I am excited to hear about your x-ray appointment for leos Munchies, Fire, Randy, and Betty!

1. X-rays are quick. Anesthesia should not be necessary....no reason to put them under. Perhaps the leos can be gently "sandwiched" between layers of plastic??? On Monday I will phone my vet's office to ask how they stabilize small squirmy animals. Cricket4u probably knows the technique!

2. My "diets down" comment refers to bone density, that's all. I mean, if your leos show good bone densities on your program...supplementation and all, it kinda confirms that varying methods are successful.

3. Does your chicken feed include vitamin A acetate or vitamin A in some form?

4. Re #22 and #48: Hilde offers good nutrition advice too.

5. How about a video of Betty walking around? I wonder whether Betty's rear "open" legs are congenital? Wonder whether her issues are results of both D3 and vitamin A deficiencies??? Don't know about supplementing her differently at this stage of her life. Knowledgeable and experienced reptile vets are sometimes difficult to find even in the USA.

6. My vet did suggest anesthesia for bloodwork. I agreed. He tried 2x to inject and leo Cha's started twitching. So we did not do the bloodwork. :-( (Maybe June 2014?)



~~~Liz or Elizabeth...I answer to both! :biggrin: