Debatable issues in health and disease

[Yuk]

I'm just making this thread to have a discussion about the common misconceptions about health and disease related topics and have a healthy debate about the credibility behind a lot of the claims.

Leaving D3 in the tank
1. D3 poisoning - any documented cases? If so, what was the husbandry like and did a vet determine the cause of death? How much D3 was consumed?

2. How are major breeders not experiencing widespread D3 poisoning if they are leaving it in the tank? Is there an underlying reason they might have a different experience than the average hobbyist

Minimum Enclosure Size
1. What is your minimum and how did you decide it? Is a maximum enclosure size possible? Are there health risks for tanks any smaller?

Multiple leopard gecko housing
1. How many is too many to house in the same enclosure, assuming you could provide enough space (that would fit in the room of a house).
2. Thoughts on housing babies with parents? Are there actual documented cases where the parent has eaten their baby? Did the parent have sufficient food and nutrients? Any cases of harm to babies (not deaths)?
3. Risk of housing 1 female/1 male, compared to 1 male/multiple females

Crypto
1. Should there be a breeder standard to check for it? In what situation would you expect a good breeder to take precautions? Should there be signs first? Is it not practical?
2. Is a "certificate of health" a reasonable expectation like it has become in the dog breeding community? If a breeder provided this, would it be well received?

And anything else you can think of that is controversial or debatable No personal attacks, and if you have citations or references, that would be awesome so we can all look for ourselves!

I'm just keeping all of my opinions here rather than hijack threads, which I have a hard time keeping myself from doing when I see something suggested that I don't agree with x_x

 

[Yuk]

Here are my answers

Leaving D3 in the tank
1. D3 poisoning - any documented cases? If so, what was the husbandry like and did a vet determine the cause of death? How much D3 was consumed?
I saw one post on a forum about it:
Owner: "gecko died face first in calcium, so yes they can die from calcium in the tank"
Other Poster: "D3 toxicity is very rare and they would have to eat a lot of it, plus aren't you the person that had all those health crisis threads?"
(paraphrased)
I also saw a mention of a person who's vet apparently has seen a lot of D3 toxicity deaths, but I didn't get the name of the vet or any other info to look further into this.

Conclusion: One vet has seen a lot of cases, but I haven't read in books, white papers, or even on forums of people saying the cause of death was actually D3 toxicity. Since I haven't seen any evidence, I can't recommend that it is left out of the tank. Also, because of how widespread MBD is, it seems like leaving it in the tank would give them the opportunity to get D3 if they needed it, compared to whatever is left on the feeder through dusting. There are tons of people who dust and are successful, so I'm not knocking that at all, but I think to recommend someone take the dish out of the tank, there should be more evidence that it really is a problem other than theory that it could be a problem.

2. How are major breeders not experiencing widespread D3 poisoning if they are leaving it in the tank? Is there an underlying reason they might have a different experience than the average hobbyist
The only thing I can think of is that the average hobbyist might be more prone to nutritional issues than the breeder who has tested their method for decades. If D3 poisoning really was common amongst hobbyists but not breeders, I would think that the geckos are trying to eat more of it because the feeders were not properly gut loaded. Just my opinion/thoughts. I don't have anything to back this opinion up.

Minimum Enclosure Size
1. What is your minimum and how did you decide it? Is a maximum enclosure size possible? Are there health risks for tanks any smaller?
I think the minimum is 10 gallons if you aren't using natural substrate. 10 gallons fits all the essentials and has just enough room for a 10 degree temperature variance. It's a tight squeeze, and there isn't as much open space as would be ideal, but health problems won't arise solely because it is a 10 gallon. The next size down, the 5 or 5.5 gallon is too small in my opinion because there will be no way you can fit everything you need to in, the ground space is inadequate, and escaping the heat is impossible unless you have a second level, but then the jump would be too high from hot to cold. I could see health problems arise from it

Multiple leopard gecko housing
1. How many is too many to house in the same enclosure, assuming you could provide enough space (that would fit in the room of a house).
I don't know that there could ever be too many if they are all related and truly a colony, but there are issues with aggression in male to female ratios where there aren't enough females. I would assume that if the tank was big enough, two colonies could possibly appear. 18 is the largest documented number I have read about. Info from The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos

2. Thoughts on housing babies with parents? Are there actual documented cases where the parent has eaten their baby? Did the parent have sufficient food and nutrients? Any cases of harm to babies (not deaths)?
There are experiments detailed in The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos where they placed a juvenile with various bigger geckos and concluded that although there may be aggression related injuries, canabalism did not occur as long as the group was properly fed. Similar observations were found in the Patrick Huddleson experiment that a colony would not eat their new hatchlings.

3. Risk of housing 1 female/1 male, compared to 1 male/multiple females
I have heard that it is safer for the females if there is one male per multiple females, but I don't have any experience or read any material stating this was the case. So I really don't know.

Crypto
1. Should there be a breeder standard to check for it? In what situation would you expect a good breeder to take precautions? Should there be signs first? Is it not practical?
I think if the breeder is in the habit of bringing in new stock from anywhere, they should do routine testing as a policy. I don't know what the appropriate frequency should be. I would expect a breeder to test any outside animal they will use for breeding. I don't think there should be signs first. I don't know whether it is practical, but I feel like we should start somewhere. If we could eliminate it from breeders, then at least there could be a safe place to purchase. New reptiles shouldn't have to be quarantined, in my opinion. If you buy an animal, there should be an expectation that it is healthy.

2. Is a "certificate of health" a reasonable expectation like it has become in the dog breeding community? If a breeder provided this, would it be well received?
I would really like to see health certificates be an option. Like a backyard breeder wouldn't provide one, there would be ways a person could buy a gecko without one, but if you wanted to pick that quality gecko and have a vet bill of health to go with it, I don't see why that can't be an option. I would receive it so well that I might exclusively buy from that person.

 

[acpart]

Thoughtful questions and answers. It would be great to find more research about this (or people interested in doing research). For another thematic look at controversial issues, check out the "Prose and Controversies" series in Gecko Time.

Aliza

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Mimimum Vivarium Size
My "minimum" vivarium size for one leo (up to 9 inches, 70 grams) is a 20 gallon LONG: 30 x 12 x 12. After placing 3 medium hides in it and some other cage furniture, there is only enough room to walk. Not much space left over.

Diet & Supplements
I believe that feeding a good dry diet and lightly dusting feeders with supplements are the safest methods for nOObs with leos.

When we "lightly dust", then we regulate the amount of D3 and/or multivitamins a leo receives. That is definitely a more controlled scenario than leaving it to a leo to self-regulate.

That's why it is important to have vitamin A acetate and vitamin D3 included in the food the feeders eat. My vet says to only use a tiny pinch of the Reptivite once a week. Leos don't need "very much" A acetate. They definitely need some vitamin D3, but not too much...otherwise a leo is at significant risk for MBD. In fact, vitamins ideally come from the diet. Light dusting helps correct the low calcium and high phosphorus found in most feeders.

It's easiest to regulate light dusting intake if you only have one gecko per tank. When I dust crickets for my Oedura castelnaui, if one of two geckos eats all the D3 crickets, the 2nd velvet "misses out" on its dose.

Part of the "standard" is that old adage: The proof is in the pudding.

 

[Yuk]

I agree that results showing what you are doing is right should be convincing evidence that a method works.

When you say they can have too much D3, what would you consider to be too much? Say someone has three methods of dusting:
Light coverage: sprinkles a "dash" on a group of large crickets
Medium coverage: puts the supplement in a bag, adds crickets and shakes
Heavy coverage: puts supplement in bag, adds crickets, shakes, and then sprinkles more on them in the tank
And they dust for a certain number of days. What is too much? If you have an amount in mg that would be good, too.


As for recommending to leave supplements out of the cage, obviously leaving supplements in the tank works on a large scale with commercial breeders. They wouldn't be using it if any significant proportion of their stock was dying from D3 toxicity. I just don't see where the urgent danger is. If you prefer dusting, that's fine. I have no issue with that. I do have an issue with the demonization of supplements in the tank without any cause. We hear all about MBD, parasites, and other health issues, but D3 toxicity deaths due to the leopard gecko eating too much of it are nowhere to be found.

I will continue to think it is unreasonable to warn people about supplements in the tank until there is data to back that up that says x number of leopard geckos died of D3 toxicity in a situatiom where feeders were not dusted, but supplements were left in the tank.

 

[Superleo98]

Leaving D3 in the tank
1. D3 poisoning - any documented cases? If so, what was the husbandry like and did a vet determine the cause of death? How much D3 was consumed?

I have not read anywhere about a death of a Leo taking in too much D3, however I have heard of some not getting enough.

2. How are major breeders not experiencing widespread D3 poisoning if they are leaving it in the tank? Is there an underlying reason they might have a different experience than the average hobbyist

I was wondering the exact same thing! Do the major breeders use calcium with D3 or without in the tanks?
Minimum Enclosure Size
1. What is your minimum and how did you decide it? Is a maximum enclosure size possible? Are there health risks for tanks any smaller?

The way I view it, is 10 gallons per leopard gecko. 1=10 gal 2=20 gal 3=30 gal and so forth. However, I have noticed you are able to provide more shelter and heat with a bigger tank. I don't think a Leo should have anymore than a 40 gal by itself, just seems too large, but I'm not against it

Multiple leopard gecko housing
1. How many is too many to house in the same enclosure, assuming you could provide enough space (that would fit in the room of a house).

As long as the Leo's have their own hides, the right amount of food and water, and no aggression, I say as many as 10 could live together in a large enclosure, like the one you described.

2. Thoughts on housing babies with parents? Are there actual documented cases where the parent has eaten their baby? Did the parent have sufficient food and nutrients? Any cases of harm to babies (not deaths)?
I've actually saw a video on YouTube where this kid had an adult female Leo and a Baby leo together in a 20 gal seperated by mesh(or cardboard, can't really remember the type) and the baby somehow got into the females side. They weren't fighting or anything, they were just laying together being peaceful.

3. Risk of housing 1 female/1 male, compared to 1 male/multiple females
As you know, I have 2 pairs together. I believe as long as they both get their food and have hides for each Leo, you can house them successfully. Some males pester the females to mate and some respect the female. As long as you keep a spare enclosure on hand in case of a fight, I don't see a problem in it. Now not all leopard geckos will be nice, some will be more aggressive than others, and simply have to be housed alone.

Crypto
1. Should there be a breeder standard to check for it?
In what situation would you expect a good breeder to take precautions? Should there be signs first? Is it not practical?
Personally, I don't know if I would have every one of my Leo babies(when I have them) checked for crypto. Some may think differently. Though I think the buyer has the right to ask whether or not they have been tested.

2. Is a "certificate of health" a reasonable expectation like it has become in the dog breeding community? If a breeder provided this, would it be well received?
I got one from my females breeder saying they were both in good health, which I am happy about. Though I really don't know if it should be mandatory for leopard geckos.

Those are just my viewpoint on things and from my experience and what I have read.

 

[hmarie186]

Calcium carbonate, which is what's in reptile supplements I believe, is recommended to be taken with food, as stomach acids aid in its absorption. Calcium citrate can be taken with or without food. What is the benefit of leaving a calcium carbonate supplement in the tank then when it needs food to absorb properly?

 

[Yuk]

Calcium carbonate, which is what's in reptile supplements I believe, is recommended to be taken with food, as stomach acids aid in its absorption. Calcium citrate can be taken with or without food. What is the benefit of leaving a calcium carbonate supplement in the tank then when it needs food to absorb properly?

This is honestly the best argument for removing supplements from the tank that I have ever read.

I have some follow up questions:
1. What is considered "food"? Does it have to be insect matter? If the supplement contains corn or gain (or some other "edible" object), does that count as food?
2. How much time do they have to eat the food for the supplement to be effective? I ask this because when mine are out and about, they are actively hunting or grabbing a snack from the food bowl. When they are done, they go back to their hide and sleep. The only time I could see them out to eat the supplement would be during the time in which they are hunting. If the minimum length of time is an hour or two, I could see them eating something within that time easily. In addition, many supplements are poured into the food bowl (which in my mind has some pros and cons to it -- they can't choose NOT eat the supplement with food at that point and if overdosing is possible, I would think that would be the way to do it.).


@ Superleo98 - It varies on the breeder. Some use with D3 some without. Both have 20+ years experience doing it this way and haven't changed things.

 

[hmarie186]

Unless you know the complete digestion time from mouth to colon, I would consider insects dusted and consumed would be the best approach.

Seeing as leopard geckos are insectivores (which are considered carnivores) they lack the proper enzymes to break down plant material and cellulose, so yes, the food needs to be some type of insect. Grains would not be suitable as a food item that would aid in digestion of supplements. Grains and other plant material should be considered a non food item.

 

[Yuk]

I will take a look into it then Thanks!

Oh another follow up - say the supplement is consumed and food isnt there to break it down. Is it just passed or does it pose a health risk?

 

[Conched]

It would be difficult to make an argument that leaving supplements in the tank is good for the breeder so it must be good for everybody. Breeders do not keep their live stock long enough to make a long term assessment. As for the breeding stock, because they are being used as breeders they are going to have very high calcium requirements.

Breeders are not going to share the dark side of what they do. Most breeders keep their animals in housing that is barely larger than a shoebox but that does not mean everybody should. Most breeders use rack systems. Imagine living in a box where the only time you see natural light is when somebody slides out the box to drop in some food, water and change your soiled substate, borderline inhumane. While not all breeders do this many do.

As for tank size, it's about quality of life plus larger enclosures are generally easier to establish a thermal gradient which is important for the Leo's overall health.

Do your research and buyer beware. Crypto is out there but I can assure you there will not be any testing for it by breeders. Buy from a reputable breeder or roll the dice. You get what you pay for.

 

[JIMI]

Sorry it turned out a bit long.

Leaving D3 in the tank
It's best to keep in mind that a lot of people own leopard geckos and a majority do not have necropsies performed after sudden deaths. Some breeders do experience sudden deaths as well I imagine. I don't believe that most would have necropsies performed for all and I don't think they would want people to know about sudden leopard gecko deaths. I choose not to leave D3 in my enclosure for the reasons that hmarie186 mentioned. Calcium carbonate requires stomach acids for proper absorption(Calcium carbonate should also not be mixed into a dish with a multivitamin containing iron because the calcium carbonate can interfere with the absorption of iron). The same goes for multivitamins; fat soluble vitamins A, D, E, and K can only be absorbed in the presence of fat. And you made a good point Yuk, leaving food in with the supplement will prevents it from being considered as just an option. I'd rather be able to regulate when and how much my leo ingests rather than leaving it up to him. Honestly, I think it's ridiculous to assume that they can calculate how much they need on their own, considering their needs are so small and the differences in the contents (ex phosphorus levels) of different supplements can be quite vast, but this is just my opinion. Because their needs are so small, it seems unnecessary to give them a dish of calcium and/or supplements. It is much better to provide it through a well balanced diet, filling in small gaps with minimal supplementation. This way, the risk of overdosing is reduced and almost completely eliminated, which is what we want isn't it? In my opinion this makes more sense. Vitamins and minerals in food are naturally balanced in a way that allows easy absorption and use by the body. Taking too much of the supplements can lead to health issues and/or death. It is more likely that they will develop health related issues, which can be hard to notice at times because reptiles do not easily reveal weakness. Most people do not think that the reason their leo has a sudden lack of appetite could be linked to their supplementation.

Minimum enclosure size
I base my opinions off of my own beliefs and articles that I have found that are similar to this:
Assessing Reptile Welfare Using Behavioural Criteria
Journal of the British Veterinary Association...March 2013

Spatial considerations
"Many reptiles are mistakenly and inhumanely kept in small cages due to erroneous advice handed down from one pet trader, hobbyist or ill-informed keeper to another. Common false understandings are that many reptiles ‘feel safer’ in small environments and that they are naturally ‘sedentary and don’t need space'. This rationale may suit the convenience of those seeking to promote reptiles as a ‘cage pet’, but it is scientifically and ethically wrong.

While reptiles, like other animals, require shelter to which they can voluntarily withdraw, the key elements are that the animal seeks a ‘hiding place’ when it senses the need for it and it does this voluntarily. Imposing a confined space on an animal is biologically equivalent to trapping it.

Home range studies of reptiles have frequently shown them to be highly active and that they travel either within local ranges of several hundreds of square meters or indefinite ranges measured in hundreds or thousands of kilometres. For example, arboreal monitors have been documented moving daily ranges greater than 186 m, home ranges for some skink lizards are 1 ha, box turtles 40 ha, indigo snakes 158 ha, and for sea turtles, travel can be measured in the thousands of kilometres.

Small species and juveniles commonly utilize as much, and sometimes more, total space than large species and adults. Smaller forms are often insectivorous and these may need to feed more frequently than larger forms and also require a great deal of activity to track and catch their highly active prey.

Regardless of these differences, all reptiles are active, including species such as pythons that are popularly, but wrongly, perceived as sedentary. Some species, in particular large carnivores such as monitor lizards and pythons, may adopt brief sedentary periods following consumption of large meals, but this is a transient phase and not one that should be used to judge an animal's general activity pattern or spatial needs."

A very small enclosure lacking stimulation and space to roam can significantly impact the leo's quality of life, meaning that it can eventually develop illness due to stress. I do not agree with keeping them in 10 gallons.

Just my opinions regarding these 2 subjects

say the supplement is consumed and food isn't there to break it down. Is it just passed or does it pose a health risk?

I know for sure that it can cause upset stomachs which leads to other unpleasant symptoms such as nausea and vomiting.

 

[Yuk]

Those are some good points!

I think it's fair to say that there is a difference between breeder rack systems and risking vitamin toxicity. They have their "collection" or breeders that they keep for years, then they have the hatchlings. They pay hundreds if not thousands on some of their breeders. If there was a chance that they could be killed by the supplementation in the tank, why would they leave it there? Why not suggest "For your expensive animals, dusting is more effective"? They do that for medical treatment: "x illness is expensive to treat. Often treated in adored pets or expensive breeding stock. Otherwise euthanasia is an option".

Also, say you have an upcoming morph that is amazing and will be worth a lot to you. If it was dangerous, why would you do what you know by experience (on the assumption that plenty of less valuable stock is dying from this - and a necropsy would be done on at least one of them if you are losing that much) continue to keep everyone on the same process. If you have enough time to incubate each egg, you have enough time to dust feeders for your expensive stock.

This situation assumes that every top breeder that leaves supplements in the tank, including Ron Tremper since at least 2005, is willing to take an x% hit on their stock knowing they are dying from D3 toxicity. And then - to recommend that hobbyists do not dust, but leave it in the tank. That borders on evil. I have a really difficult time believing that.

 

[acpart]

One thing this topic points to is the lack of credible research about these issues. Until then, we're destined not to really know. I've never heard it recommended to leave calcium with D3 in the cage. As I've mentioned in other threads, I stopped leaving any kind of calcium in the cage until 2 of my hatchlings started showing signs of MBD. One was walking on its elbows. Now I leave a small amount (bottle cap) of calcium without D3 in the cage and the elbow walker is back up on her feet.

Aliza

 

[hmarie186]

If you have enough time to incubate each egg, you have enough time to dust feeders for your expensive stock.

That's not really true. I'm no breeder but I'm pretty sure you don't have to dedicate much time to incubation other than initial setting up. Most breeders have incubators that control heat and humidity so the work is pretty much done until hatch time.

Vitamin toxicity may not show up for years, and may manifest itself in the form of other common symptoms perceived as something else or simply unexplained. Some breeders have stock they keep for years but as someone else said, they have higher nutritional requirements because of how taxed their systems are. That may be one reason. They also may have more deaths than you think and do not have necropsies performed.

Point being, large scale breeders do minimum care that saves time, money and space. They don't have time to dust prey on a schedule. Put vitamins in the tank. They don't have money or space to provide large enclosures for hundreds of animals. Rack system. They don't have money to buy reptile specific supplements. Vionate and other cheap, inappropriate (in my opinion) products. No time or money to feed variety. All mealworm diet.

Hell, some breeders are still suggesting geckos are like birds and need GRIT (GRIT!!) to digest food! Feed them play sand mixed with calcium and oyster/egg shell?

I'm not knocking breeders at all. Without them, most of us would be forced to buy from chain stores that get their animals from even more inhumane situations that you play russian roulette with their state of health. There are many great breeders. There are some bad ones out there. I think comparing a hobbyist's care to a large scale breeder, no matter who they are, is apples to oranges. We can do so much better in our husbandry practices. Just because they don't have mass die off's doesn't mean it's ok to house them in a rubbermaid tote on mealworms with supplements in the cage.

 

[Yuk]

That's not really true. I'm no breeder but I'm pretty sure you don't have to dedicate much time to incubation other than initial setting up. Most breeders have incubators that control heat and humidity so the work is pretty much done until hatch time.

Vitamin toxicity may not show up for years, and may manifest itself in the form of other common symptoms perceived as something else or simply unexplained. Some breeders have stock they keep for years but as someone else said, they have higher nutritional requirements because of how taxed their systems are. That may be one reason. They also may have more deaths than you think and do not have necropsies performed.

Point being, large scale breeders do minimum care that saves time, money and space. They don't have time to dust prey on a schedule. Put vitamins in the tank. They don't have money or space to provide large enclosures for hundreds of animals. Rack system. They don't have money to buy reptile specific supplements. Vionate and other cheap, inappropriate (in my opinion) products. No time or money to feed variety. All mealworm diet.

Hell, some breeders are still suggesting geckos are like birds and need GRIT (GRIT!!) to digest food! Feed them play sand mixed with calcium and oyster/egg shell?

I'm not knocking breeders at all. Without them, most of us would be forced to buy from chain stores that get their animals from even more inhumane situations that you play russian roulette with their state of health. There are many great breeders. There are some bad ones out there. I think comparing a hobbyist's care to a large scale breeder, no matter who they are, is apples to oranges. We can do so much better in our husbandry practices. Just because they don't have mass die off's doesn't mean it's ok to house them in a rubbermaid tote on mealworms with supplements in the cage.

Yeah I meant the initial look for egg, put egg in incubator time. Looking through hundreds of enclosures and handling eggs seems like it would take more time than dusting for 50 or so expensive animals.

I appreciate your perspective, though I'm not convinced it is dangerous to leave the supplement in the tank. I think at this point it's all conjecture and I agree with Aliza that some real research on this would be required to clear it up. Otherwise we are either taking breeders on their word (which isn't good) or assuming the worst in breeders (which I don't agree with either).

I'm already planning on doing some research on deaths in reptiles due to D3 toxicity. I'll update here with what I find, but it might take a while -- I might have landed a new programming job which is exciting, but it'll keep me busy (which is a good thing! lol)

 

[hmarie186]

That's the beauty of things though, Yuk, we are all allowed to do what we feel is best for our individual animal's needs. If it works well for someone then they should keep supplements in the tank. For those that don't then that's well too. I don't keep it in the tank because I prefer to know he's getting the right amount of calcium with food so he's absorbing it and his multi once a week.

I rather enjoy that everyone can share in a friendly debate. I've been on alot of forums where that's not the case!

Congrats on the (hopefully) new job!

 

[Yuk]

Here's some reading material in the meantime:

VITAMIN D TOXICITY

Calcium supplements sometimes include vitamin D. Cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) may be listed on food labels as cholecalciferol, animal sterol, D-activated animal sterol, irradiated animal sterol, or vitamin D3.

Owners, breeders, and veterinarians often oversupplement captive reptiles with disastrous results. Dosages of 50 to 1000 times the minimum daily requirement are often given for weeks to months. Minimum daily requirements have not been established for reptiles. The mechanism of action of the toxicity of vitamin D is related to the hypercalcemia it induces. This prolonged hypercalcemia causes dystrophic calcification of the gastrointestinal tissues, the kidneys, lungs, blood vessels, and joints. Complete removal of vitamin D -containing supplements and cortisone may help control hypercalcemia, but resolution of soft-tissue calcification may not be successful. Clinical signs include depression, weakness and anorexia. Eventually, signs of renal disease become evident as glomerular filtration rate decrease.

In light of the inherent calcium problems of captive reptiles, veterinarians must counsel clients about proper husbandry, nutrition, and dietary requirements and ensure that no supplements are given to animals without veterinary approval. Veterinarians must provide up-to-date advice to reptile caretakers concerning every aspect of the health of the animals. 1069
--Book: Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas R. Mader, MS, DVM, DABVP Diplomate, American Board of Veterinary Practitioners (CA) Fellow, Royal Society of Medicine Marathon Veterinary Hospital Marathon, Flori.da SAUNDERS. With 72 Contributing Authors
(found on a forum with reference to book) - posted 1/31/2013

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...04-calcium-vit-d3-too-much-vs-too-little.html
Another thread with some info

I still need to wade through all the studies and see what I can find. Their results haven't made it anywhere that I could find at a quick glance anyway. No one seems to know how much D3 is required.

 

[Yuk]

That's the beauty of things though, Yuk, we are all allowed to do what we feel is best for our individual animal's needs. If it works well for someone then they should keep supplements in the tank. For those that don't then that's well too. I don't keep it in the tank because I prefer to know he's getting the right amount of calcium with food so he's absorbing it and his multi once a week.

I rather enjoy that everyone can share in a friendly debate. I've been on alot of forums where that's not the case!

Congrats on the (hopefully) new job!

I totally agree! And thank you! The issue I have is telling someone that something is dangerous when it isn't proven to be dangerous. If you like dusting, dust away I'm not going to tell a newbie: well my way is to leave it in the tank, so you should stop dusting and start leaving it in the tank. Likewise when people post that they have D3 supplement in the tank and someone says they shouldn't, I can't help but question that -- which is why I'd really like to get to the bottom of it. If it were just "well this substrate is better for x reasons" that'd be no problem or even: "dusting is better because you know they are eating food with it" Absolutely acceptable!

 

[JIMI]

I agree with you guys. It is very difficult to find the appropriate research to back up our opinions. I personally choose to go with the scientific facts because I feel more comfortable relying on them, they make sense to me, and they have been working very well for me so far. I have also discussed all of my husbandry with an experienced reptile vet who agreed with my care. I like taking a no risk approach with my leo because he is very important to me and I want him to live a long and happy life so I prefer researching and utilizing full proof ways that involve little to no risk. Prevention is my motto! This is what works for me and I have also been experiencing great results by utilizing these methods. Those are also great points about our responses that you are bringing up Yuk.

Congrats!!:cheer: