MBD Suspicions, Please Help!

[Shijadi]

So I came home last night to find that my male Leo, Nyx, was unable to walk properly. I came to change out his water and feeding dish, and he looked like he was trying to slither around, flailing his arms to try and get them underneath himself. His right front arm seemed to fold in the right places, but the foot on his left front arm is folded back and looked like he was trying to walk on his wrist. At first I thought he was fine lying still, because leos just kinda sprawl out their limbs at weird angles when thy're chilling out, but as soon as he tried to move, I new something was up.

The weird thing is that he doesn't have any deformities, his limbs are in proper proportion with no swelling or bruising--although he does have the little air sac looking things near his armpits, but from looking that up, leos seem to get those from time to time so not sure if that has to do with anything; plus its never bothered him before. He hasn't really eaten much, but he hasn't lost any weight and his tail is still super fat. His tank (20gal long) temps during the day (warm/cool) have been normal, 92/85F, and at night 85/70F. Humidity has also been normal, no higher than 45% Right now I've been trying to get him to lick up some extra Calcium with D3 in it and he was able to do that--although sometimes when he opened his mouth, he struggled to stick out his tongue and just kinda gaped open a few times before he started licking again.

I have already emailed a local vet about Nyx's condition, and I'm hoping to hear back from them soon.

Any idea/suggestions about what I can do for my boy? Would love any help I could get. Here are a few pics I could get of him. Not much to go by, but I will update with more if I can, and I can also try and get some footage of him trying to move.

 

[Shijadi]

Snagged some more pictures of Nyx. Again, not really seeing anything wrong with him, he really looks like he's just being lazy and sprawled out. I may take him out of the tank later to check his underside and make sure that looks okay.

 

[kvnsu]

hmm, maybe he fell down? What is your dusting schedule and are you dusting with a calcium supplement at least twice a week? Limp walking is a sign of MBD, what I did to fix my young gecko's MBD is place a small cup of calcium w/o D3 in the cage until the limp walking stopped, which it did and then I removed the calcium.

 

[Shijadi]

I dust mealworms and crickets every other day with a D3 calcium suppliment, and and multivitamin once a week. I don't have any plain calcium dust, but I can easily go pick some up.

 

[Shijadi]

I caught a little clip of Nyx trying to move...I'd be lying if I said I wasn't heartbroken.

 

[kvnsu]

Yeah it seems MBD.. best thing you can do is leave a cup of calcium w/o D3 and go to the vet, so they can give it proper medication (calcium shots, etc)

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

:-(

I dust mealworms and crickets every other day with a D3 calcium suppliment, and and multivitamin once a week. I don't have any plain calcium dust, but I can easily go pick some up.

Please share the total number of times per week for calcium + D3 and for the multivitamin, heavily or lightly dusted, brand and name of each supplement.

Have you been dusting all the mealworms or crickets per dusted feeding?

What do you feed the bugs and the mealworms prior to feeding Nyx?

How quickly did this happen? When was the last time you noticed Nyx moving normally?

 

[Shijadi]

Sunday/Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday = Calcium D3 dusting
Saturday = Also multivitamin dusting

I have Fluker's Calcium with D3, Rep-Cal Herptivite Multivitamin, and earlier I went and picked up the ExoTerra Calcium supplement without D3 (only brand that was available at petsmart).

I feed Nyx a mix of both insects each meal, so I dust both (lightly).

The mealworms I feed rolled oats and carrots, the crickets I also feed carrots and the Zoo Med Cricket Block.

I just noticed Nyx's condition change last night (Tues. 10/07/14). As far as I know Nyx was behaving normally since Sunday/Monday, so this is a rather swift change, he seemed perfectly fine not that long ago. So I can't decide if he just hurt himself, or if there is just some underlying factor I was unable to read and it could be MBD.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Sunday/Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday = Calcium D3 dusting
Saturday = Also multivitamin dusting

I have Fluker's Calcium with D3, Rep-Cal Herptivite Multivitamin, and earlier I went and picked up the ExoTerra Calcium supplement without D3 (only brand that was available at petsmart).

I feed Nyx a mix of both insects each meal, so I dust both (lightly).

The mealworms I feed rolled oats and carrots, the crickets I also feed carrots and the Zoo Med Cricket Block.

I just noticed Nyx's condition change last night (Tues. 10/07/14). As far as I know Nyx was behaving normally since Sunday/Monday, so this is a rather swift change, he seemed perfectly fine not that long ago. So I can't decide if he just hurt himself, or if there is just some underlying factor I was unable to read and it could be MBD.

Thank you for sharing these details.

Way too much calcium with D3 dusting. Were there any supplements at all in Nyx's enclosure?

Rep Cal's Herptivite contains beta carotene; Zoo Med's Reptivite contains vitamin A acetate.

I'd stop ANY D3 dusting and Herptivite dusting right now.

Rolled oats are waaaaaaaay overbalanced: too much phosphorus, barely any calcium. We strive for a 1.5-2.0 calcium to 1.0 phosphorus in the foods we feed our geckos. Insects and worms are naturally super high in phosphorus. That's why we dust with calcium.

For the present I would also discontinue any carrots. Collard greens and pesticide free dandelions/greens are excellent for calcium.

Have you heard back from the vet? Can you make an appointment to have Nyx seen right away?

 

[Shijadi]

I never kept any supplements in his tank.

I haven't heard back from the vet, so I'm going to call tomorrow after my morning class and try and have him seen in the afternoon or sometime Friday.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I never kept any supplements in his tank.

I haven't heard back from the vet, so I'm going to call tomorrow after my morning class and try and have him seen in the afternoon or sometime Friday.

Let the vet know that this is an emergency. A vet experienced with leopard geckos is best. It's very important to discover the exact source of Nyx's issues.

 

[kvnsu]

In this instance, I would recommend leaving at least a small bottle cap of calcium without d3 in the tank. Some extra calcium in his system right now would do more right then wrong. You can remove it after your vet visit.

 

[Shijadi]

I do have some plain calcium for him just in case, and I'll keep offering him food, but I doubt he will eat. Hopefully some rest will do him some good.

I will keep you all updated.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

In this instance, I would recommend leaving at least a small bottle cap of calcium without d3 in the tank. Some extra calcium in his system right now would do more right then wrong. You can remove it after your vet visit.

Hi kvnsu ~

Can you share your experiences with beginning MBD in your young leo? How was the recovery? Definitely On Topic here.

 

[kvnsu]

Hi kvnsu ~

Can you share your experiences with beginning MBD in your young leo? How was the recovery? Definitely On Topic here.

Of course! well it was quite similar to her problem ATM I noticed my young gecko was 'limp walking' so I just placed a small amount of plain calcium carbonate in his enclosure and slightly upped the amount of dusting I did with the calcium with D3. Pip was doing fine eating and pooping normally just not walking too well.. After about a couple weeks with the slightly upped calcium intake. Pip stopped limp walking and I removed the plain calcium carbonate and went back to 'normal' dusting with the calcium with D3.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Of course! well it was quite similar to her problem ATM I noticed my young gecko was 'limp walking' so I just placed a small amount of plain calcium carbonate in his enclosure and slightly upped the amount of dusting I did with the calcium with D3. Pip was doing fine eating and pooping normally just not walking too well.. After about a couple weeks with the slightly upped calcium intake. Pip stopped limp walking and I removed the plain calcium carbonate and went back to 'normal' dusting with the calcium with D3.

Sounds like Pip made a very good recovery! Thanks!!!

 

[Shijadi]

Hey guys,

So I took Nyx to the vet, and he's going to be fine. The vet told me that he had early stages of MBD, but that it can be reversed. Nyx received a vitamin D shot--which made him very grumpy--and I'm giving him a weekly calcium shot for the next 5 weeks. I was also told to get a UVB lamp so that Nyx can process and utilize the calcium. He said something about how some calcium powders have D3, but in order for the D3 to activate you need a UVB source--so I went ahead and picked up a new lamp bulb earlier. Also the vet said he knew people who owned chickens and was going to get me some chicken feed in the near future for my feeder insects.

Also he gave me a better tip on dusting my insects; simply put the bugs in a baggie, add a little spritz of pan spray so that the supplement dust would stick better.

At any rate, looks like he's going to be okay! Glad I was able to get him looked at before he got worse.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Awesome news about Nyx, Shijadi!

Did you share with your vet the frequency you've been dusting, both with the calcium with D3 and with the Herptivite?

This is how I dust: Take a tall plastic deli cup...add a little powder...add bugs...gently swirl the bugs to lightly coat.

Generally keepers only use a UVB source OR powdered D3, not both!

Be sure to keep us current with Nyx's progress.

 

[Shijadi]

I did share my supplementing with the vet; the multivitamin was fine. He felt Nyx still wasn't utilizing enough calcium and I figured I would try the UVB bulb for a little extra boost, especially since Nyx is usually sleeping in one of his hide spots and not in direct light. I'm going to at least hang onto the light while I monitor Nyx's recovery.

I'm really glad I got things settled, and now I can better prepare for my other leo, Butters, so he/she doesn't go down the same path.

Also, I did have Nyx weighed for the first time; he's 86g. Dunno if that's good enough for a 10-12 month old male.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Sunday/Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday = Calcium D3 dusting
Saturday = Also multivitamin dusting

I have Fluker's Calcium with D3, Rep-Cal Herptivite Multivitamin, and earlier I went and picked up the ExoTerra Calcium supplement without D3 (only brand that was available at petsmart).

I feed Nyx a mix of both insects each meal, so I dust both (lightly).

The mealworms I feed rolled oats and carrots, the crickets I also feed carrots and the Zoo Med Cricket Block.

I just noticed Nyx's condition change last night (Tues. 10/07/14). As far as I know Nyx was behaving normally since Sunday/Monday, so this is a rather swift change, he seemed perfectly fine not that long ago. So I can't decide if he just hurt himself, or if there is just some underlying factor I was unable to read and it could be MBD.

I did share my supplementing with the vet; the multivitamin was fine. He felt Nyx still wasn't utilizing enough calcium and I figured I would try the UVB bulb for a little extra boost, especially since Nyx is usually sleeping in one of his hide spots and not in direct light. I'm going to at least hang onto the light while I monitor Nyx's recovery.

I'm really glad I got things settled, and now I can better prepare for my other leo, Butters, so he/she doesn't go down the same path.

Also, I did have Nyx weighed for the first time; he's 86g. Dunno if that's good enough for a 10-12 month old male.

I quote both your posts so others can see them without scrolling. Are you using the same supplement schedule for Butters?

About the 86 grams: Does Nyx have any giant genes?

I am puzzled why Nyx might not be absorbing all the D3 you are giving him? I am wondering whether your feeders contain too much phosphorus or whether something else is interfering. Phosphorus interferes with calcium absorption. :-(

What does your vet think about this:
I have heard that too much vitamin D3 can cause what is know as "reverse MBD". How I'm understanding "reverse MBD" is that MBD can be caused by too much vitamin D3 as well as too little vitamin D3.

Flukers calcium with D3
220,000 D3 IU/kg
calcium from limestone flour

Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3
22,907 D3 IU/kg
precipitated calcium carbonate

Less is much better. With supplements we walk a fine line.

Research has been done on chameleons which suggests that they don't metabolize vitamin A in the form of beta carotene (like in Herptivite). Perhaps that finding extends to other lizards like geckos?

Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamin, with or without D3, contains preformed vitamin A acetate. Reptivite also contains calcium carbonate.

Scroll here to post #24 for calcium with D3 comparisons: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...acularius-demo-video-4-jan-2013-update-3.html

You mention 92/85 for a daytime thermal gradient in your 20 gallon long. 92 to the mid 70s will be much better.