2nd Leo, 1st time raising baby

[NeoLeo87]

First, thank you for the detailed response! These are the kinds of responses I appreciate on the forums.

Their smallest amount is 500 worms... I have a lot of mouths to feed XD more than is on my signature.

1. Are there websites you recommend to purchase?
2. Should I even BOTHER to buy these if it's only for 2 geckos? The adult barely eats, the little one eats daily.

They also need a heat pad, egg crates and a healthy diet. Other than that they are probably the easiest feeder to breed and I breed a lot XD

Good LORD! They not only need the elaborate setup but a heat pad purchased too? Until I can afford the time and money into these lil guys, I'll stick to crickets...

I also do a wet gutload which consists of oranges, mangos, bananas, and papaya.

Nope, nope and nope. I live in New Orleans. That means anything I put out moist? Fruit flies take over. I have already dealt with fruit flies growing in my cricket cages. I can NOT have another fruit fly infestation in my own bedroom or anywhere else near the geckos or in the house.

Phoenix worms are also called calci worms and can usually be bought at Petco or also online.

I see these at Petco but never bought any... Are these popular on the list of preferred feeders?

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I should note again: I don't have the kind of lifestyle that allows me such freedom to breed, care for, and even make "homemade gut load" for these feeders. I'm just a simple leo owner who wants to have variety in my pets' diets. I usually work a 12 hour day shift (i work in the film industry) and at least with crickets I can rely on them being the EASIEST to take care of.

QUESTIONS TO ALL USERS:
1. What do I do with hornworms when they get too big (ready to pupate)? Should I just release them?
2. What is the most inexpensive and economic choice for feeders besides crickets?
3. Hornworms failed. What is the best route now? Phoenix worms? Silkworms? Roaches?

 

[Cymmie]

Ok lol,

I should've pointed you at a place who sells smaller amount of silkworms >.< lol sorry my fault there. There are places who will only sell 25-50 worms to you. If I remember correctly there is Linda's gone Buggy, Coastal Silkworms, Mulberry Farms, but these places you have to be quick to grab some or they go out of stock really fast. Silkworms are easy keepers when they get to the "small stage" though I would buy medium (even easier) if I were you. All I do is make the chow (which comes in powdered form when you buy it from mulberry farms or coastal) which you do in the microwave and keep it in the fridge for up to two weeks.

Calci-worms are GREAT high in calcium without powdering and really healthy it just takes a lot to feed one gecko on those solely, and you HAVE to make sure to get a fresh bunch or else they pupate and turn into flies.... unless you have a chameleon lying around the flies aren't really useful for feeding leos. lol

And to get a little bit of chitin into him, if you don't want to raise roaches you could keep them as just feeders and order how many you need at a time. They don't need heat if you don't want to breed them and just need a 10 gallon container or sterilite/rubbermaid bin and then egg crates along with food. For a water source you can put a moist papertowel in or one of those animal safe sponges they sell at pet stores? Or if you want to go another route you can feed them with water crystals, which the side effects of feeding anything water crystals are not completely understood yet.

DO NOT release the hornworms... they are considered a pest and should be either eaten or ... sadly killed >.< I hate saying it but they can majorly destroy crops and that is not looked kindly upon by people lol. Do you have any chickens? Or other insect eating birds?

Man if you lived closer I would offer you to try from my stock of insects.

 

[NeoLeo87]

THANKS Cymmie! Some very useful information here. You speak my language lol.

The hornworms were just...too problematic. :/ I'm going to see if my boss (she raises chickens) will want them. Even the biggest ones (nearly as long as my hand!) would surely be enjoyed by adult chickens, right?

I'm going to try calci worms definitely! I'll buy some tomorrow (if they're a fresh batch). I know Gabby LOVES wax worms, but I never give them to him because they're addictive... I can't tell if he liked hornworms because he only ate one, and never ate another. He's only been fed crickets for 10 years. Bad, I know. Maybe silkworms are the answer?

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GABBY UPDATES: I often tend to be a hypochondriac when it comes to myself, and others I care for. This includes my geckos. That being said, I never know when something is wrong or not.

For those who are new to this thread, including Cymmie, my adult of ~15 years old has been a fussy eater. Is it stress from unfamiliar vivarium changes? Is it a parasite? Is it an extreme change in diet (taking him off the overdose of calcium he's had daily for years)? The answer may never be found, but one thing remains: Gabby's behavior seems different. Thus, I've been trying to find new feeders and give him a better lifestyle.

Also, Gabby's tail is a bit thinner than it's always been. On top of this he's been more active around his tank. Is this necessarily a warning sign? Or normal? (Apologies for the quality of pictures. If I turned on the light, Gabby would scamper into his hideout.)



Thanks again everyone.

 

[Cymmie]

He still looks pretty healthy to me, it may be because it's getting warmer that he's gotten more active. Geckos are confusing little creatures I have found out lol, is he acting sickly, or just different?

 

[JIMI]

I'm sorry about your concerns for Gabby. :sad: I've read that changes in environment can cause that sort of behavior. It's understandable that a sudden change in environment after 10 years may cause Gabby to stress. I think that if you were to make any changes to his environment that they should be done gradually. Your call to start off with a change in diet sounds like a good plan. You can feed roaches a dry diet and add variety to their diet with high calcium organic leafy greens such as collards, dandelion, turnip, and mustard greens which I don't think will attract fruit flies. I can't believe he refused the hornworms! I've heard that black soldier fly larvae(calci-worms) can be a hit or miss with a leo(mine will not eat many:/), I hope Gabby will go for them! Just to warn you, you may see a whole worm in his feces if he does eat them which has been known to happen. Simply pricking them with a needle prior to feeding them off so that the stomach acids can penetrate the tough skin of the worm can resolve this. Perhaps it is time to take in a fecal sample for testing to eliminate parasites from the list? Sorry if I may have missed anything that you already mentioned in a previous post, this is just a long thread. Good luck!

 

[NeoLeo87]

is he acting sickly, or just different?

I wish it were easier to tell. I say this because of all the changes Gabby has had recently. His behavior is anxious (exploring the cool side of his tank, but does not seem to mind the warm), making some croaking noises sometimes, and rubbing against his cool hide (and no, he is not about to shed). He doesn't seem to have trouble getting around though.

He still defecates, but it looks like a bright tan color sometimes, and always has a yellow tint to some of the urate. He is still pooping, but hasn't eaten in about 4 days...does this mean he's surviving solely on the fat in his tail? I don't know anything about "gecko fasting," so anyone with information would be doing a great favor.

I have yet to find any good vets in New Orleans that know much about leopard geckos.

As for the hornworms...I sadly had to flush the 6 remaining. Gabby just didn't want them when they were still small enough. My friends' chickens didn't want them either. :/ But alas, we learn from trial and error. I will not be buying hornworms for awhile.

You've gotta understand...Gabby has been raised on "okay" conditions, but not "ideal." Users, get ready to faint.

Gabby has had:
1. no moist hide (other than occasional paper towel in his cool hide when its shedding time)
2. sand substrate for 10 years (and seems to like it)
3. only crickets for his diet. Nothing. But. Crickets.
4. Dusted AND gutloaded crickets, 2 every night.
5. No UTH, only his light bulbs.

BEFORE YOU JUMP ON ME!...Gabby was actually doing quite well this way. This has all been changed in the last few months since I joined the site, however. The transition Gabby has been making is a tough one. I am in it for the long haul with him (always have been) and I am just taking baby steps to introduce him to other feeders. I will keep an eye on him.

 

[JIMI]

If you contact the Louisiana Gulf Coast Herpetological Society they may be able to point you in the direction of an experienced reptile veterinarian.

 

[NeoLeo87]

UPDATES - 4/21/15: To all of you followers (and those who are new)...

Feeders: I decided not to use calci worms. After checking the pet store, they are just too darn small! I'm going to try medium size mealworms in a container for Gabby. He ate a few before...but that was ten years ago. Maybe he will like them again?

Also, silkworms are out of stock right now at several places. Anyone have some I can purchase off you?

GABBY UPDATES:
Gabby hunted! I saw him wandering the tank looking for crickets. Though I didn't see him catch any, I came back from the gym to find poop. Lately, his poop has concerned me... The last couple weeks he made smaller droppings than usual, and each time the tint is redder. Not like the color of blood, but like his sand substrate.

I know what you're thinking. But Gabby has been on this sand for 10 years, and I have never seen him even lick it. I have no reason to suspect him of digesting sand...but for those experienced users, does this look like substrate poop to you?

One last question: Do geckos grow thinner tails for spring/summer, and fatter tails for fall/winter? If so, maybe that is why his tail is slimmer now. I truly don't know.

CORNBREAD UPDATES: Cornbread is doing fine. He is a voracious eater! And very skilled. Though sometimes he can be ornery. Every time I remove his paper towel bedding he immediately must investigate lol. Cornbread also likes to climb on me. He is a very curious baby.

Oh and after several sheds, his new tail has turned orange! I guess he has what's called a "carrot tail"

If you contact the Louisiana Gulf Coast Herpetological Society they may be able to point you in the direction of an experienced reptile veterinarian.

Thanks, JIMI. I will call them tomorrow!

That's all the updates for now.

 

[Cymmie]

I have silkworms right now, if you want 25 of them I will sell them to you for 7 dollars, plus whatever shipping is ^^. I will throw in some free food as well.

 

[NeoLeo87]

I have silkworms right now, if you want 25 of them I will sell them to you for 7 dollars, plus whatever shipping is ^^. I will throw in some free food as well.

Yes, please. I will give you my address.

 

[NeoLeo87]

...so can anyone answer my questions? I'll repost them.

1. In post #68, does my gecko's fecal matter look like he ate substrate?
2. Do geckos even poop like that if they eat substrate?
3. Do geckos grow thinner tails for spring/summer, and fatter tails for fall/winter?

Oh, and here's a tip I learned to helping a fussy eater... Since Gabby has a hard time bothering to get out and look for food, I sometimes lift his hideout so he doesn't have somewhere to hide. That way when a cricket comes by he's more likely to focus on it, rather than take shelter and ignore them. So far, this is sadly the only way I've gotten him to eat. :/

 

[mecoat]

I can't answer 1 or 2 for you, but I'd say for 3 - no, their tails should get fatter during spring summer, then if they slow down eating for winter, they can live off the tail, tails should not reduce during summer unless there's an underlying reason (sickness, stress, etc.)

 

[JIMI]

I can't tell from the picture if he looks like he ate some substrate or not so I can't give you a reliable response, but I know that if they consume sand it can be visible in their feces.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Bryan ~

Rub some of Gabby's poop between your fingertips. Does it feel gritty? Not sure whether one would be able to feel the sand through latex gloves.

Sorry if that seems gross to you.

 

[NeoLeo87]

CONCERNED UPDATE: As many of you can see I've been posting for a long time on this thread regarding Gabby's health. I've tried changing substrates, I've tried new diets, I've tried a lot.

After digging around, I can't believe nobody brought this up to me.

Cryptosporidium.

I read this article Leopard Gecko Cryptosporidium

Here are reasons I feel Gabby might have this:
1. Lethargy
2. Loss of appetite (though I read crypto positive geckos will still eat sometimes)
3. Thinning tail
4. Feces change

Now, I have been recently trying to get Gabby to eat. He has stopped eating like normal. When he does eat, he defecates the next day. This is unusual because Gabby always took a couple days to defecate.

Rub some of Gabby's poop between your fingertips. Does it feel gritty? Not sure whether one would be able to feel the sand through latex gloves.

Elizabeth, thank you for asking me to do this. I did it tonight, and I felt cricket wings and exoskeleton, as if he didn't fully digest.

Right now, I have Gabby in his tank without his hideouts so he can walk around and hopefully catch some crickets. I cleaned his hideout the best I could.

I'm going to search for a good vet tomorrow that may know about leopard geckos. If I can find one, I'm going to make an appointment and get him in this upcoming week. Even with costs, I want to give Gabby a fighting chance. I have had him for 10 years now, and he's been around longer than that.

Also, now that I have Cornbread, I have to worry about whether he is going to get anything from Gabby. He's just a baby, I don't want him to be sick too!

Here are pics. Does it look like Gabby's tail is unnaturally thin?




Sad, lost, struggling owner.

 

[JIMI]

I don't think it looks unnaturally thin. From that angle it still looks like he has a good amount of fat left on his tail. You can take matters into your own hands while searching for a good veterinarian and test for Cryptosporidium yourself by sending in a sample to Avian Biotech. I think this page takes you directly to the test: Service Pricing. I haven't used it myself, but I know other GU members have used them to test for Crypto. Keep Cornbread in a different room if you can. Were you able to contact your local herp society for good reptile vets in your area? I hope that your suspicions are wrong. I'm rooting for you and Gabby!

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

You're welcome, Bryan.

Please check all the temperatures in Gabby's enclosure and get back with us.

 

[kholtme]

Also handle and feed gabby last, then wash your hands really good. Put them in different rooms if you can. And no Gabby has a healthy tail. Unnaturally thin would be only bones. Google skinny leopard gecko, and you will see that your geckos appearance is fine.

 

[NeoLeo87]

~GREAT UPDATE!~

For the past couple days, I've been monitoring Gabby's situation. To ensure cleanliness, I removed his reptile carpet to wash. When I did, I discovered these...

At first, I thought these were a parasite. However, I also saw them under the wet paper towels in the cricket tank. I'm more than sure these are fruit fly larvae. I know, gross, but these would not do harm to Gabby. Nevertheless, carpet was removed permanently from Gabby's tank. He now has paper towels on one side, sand on the other. (Disclaimer: For those unfamiliar, Gabby has lived on sand ~10 years and loves it. He's smart not to consume sand, and I wish to not change him from what he considers home.)

Then, the other night, something miraculous happened... Not only did Gabby get excited for food, but he ate FOUR crickets in 1 night... Gabby has never done this in years. In addition, he's back to rattling his tail, just like he did when we first got him! Below are pics of Gabby (and Cornbread)!
--- Gabby feeling much better (and looking PENSIVE)
--- Cornbread being curious!
--- Cornbread MORE CURIOUS!

His poop is better too! Here's a before/after of his feces improvement (Warning: POOP PICS AHEAD!)
--- Expelling "herptivite overdose" (phase 1 of sick times)
--- Lethargic "withdrawal" period (improperly digestion/less food)
--- Regular ol' POOP again!

MY CONCLUSION: Being the worrier that I am, I quickly assumed that Gabby's tail thinning was a result of a disease or old age - especially with how lethargic he was getting. My new assumption is that his tail thinning was a result of a better, healthier diet, and proper dosage of calcium/vitamin supply. Prior to all this, Gabby was fed 2 crickets a day, dusted AND gut loaded with calcium, every single night for the last handful of years. This resulted in his lethargy, and a fatter tail, is my guess. Now, the crickets are properly fed, and dusted only when needed,. I believe Gabby's "sick state" was his withdrawal from the unhealthy lifestyle he previously had.

I will still keep an eye on him in case things change, but I must admit... I'm quite moved by the results. I wouldn't have done this without joining the site, and I wouldn't have joined the site without buying little baby Cornbread. So really, Cornbread is to thank for saving his big brother.

And I want to thank all of you at Geckos Unlimited for your continued support/suggestions. A particular shout-out to Elizabeth, Cymmie, kholtme, and LEOPARD@1 who have either been there with me at the beginning, or played a key role up til now - and naturally, to all the rest of you joining in. I would not have made it MILES without you.
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Elizabeth, Gabby's and Cornbread's temperatures are kept about the same. 70-72 cool side, 79-81 warm side. I try to keep the UTH 87-92 in the day, and 84-89 at night. I sometimes have trouble with Gabby's thermometer because it gets moved off his sand mound...then it reads incorrectly and his sand will get too hot! Sure wish I knew a better way to secure a thermometer on sand.

kholtme, JIMI, I can't move Cornbread outside my bedroom. I live in an apartment with two other roommates. My room is the best place for both of them, believe me.

 

[kholtme]

70-72 cool side, 79-81 warm side.

Was the warm side temp a typo?

Also, you are welcome. We are all here to help