females aren't eating so much and have become picky

[mecoat]

Alternatively, are Berry, Puff and Poppy going to the loo earlier than Hopper, thus giving it time to dry out before you spot it? Or are they using the warm side, while Hopper uses the cool (again drying it out quicker)? Just a thought (or rather 2).

 

[amsdadtodd]

I don't know how wide the range is for leo's urine output. Are you sure Berry, Puff, & Poppy aren't urinating much? How are their sheds? I would not worry unless their sheds are difficult.

I guess I can't be absolutely positive, but I use white paper towels with light colored travertine tiles placed around the edges to hole the paper towels in place. All four of them tend to "go" on the tiles usually, which makes spot cleaning so much easier, but also holds the stain in place until I wash it out of the travertine. In those rare instances when they miss the tile, the white paper towel stains. When Hopper stains the paper towel it's easily seen, and not something I've seen with the other three.

As to the sheds, everybody sheds quite easily. Once in a while, Berry will get a little piece stuck to the top of her head, but it's easily removed when I see it.

As to your other comment about the vitamin A, well, as I said the source is not flawless. That is why I posted his comments rather than just act on them. Thank you for addressing it.

The girls did get their hornworms last night, dusted in plain calcium. Neither has messed yet, so I don't believe diarrhea is what is going on. I am working from home today so I will be checking in on them regularly.

Thank you,
Todd

 

[amsdadtodd]

Alternatively, are Berry, Puff and Poppy going to the loo earlier than Hopper, thus giving it time to dry out before you spot it? Or are they using the warm side, while Hopper uses the cool (again drying it out quicker)? Just a thought (or rather 2).

Both interesting thoughts, and your second one leads me to a conclusion I had never considered before. All four of them only go on tiles on their cool sides. I have never found a mess on the warm side of any of their tanks.
I really can't say too much about your first question, I just have no way way of knowing if a deposit is made just after "bed check" or just before I look in on them in the morning. During the daytime I actually often get to check on them every few hours, my job is such that I work from home more often than not. So, I don't see that anything is drying up during the day between check ins.

Thank you,
Todd

 

[amsdadtodd]

I'm still trying to entice the girls to eat, so far I'm just able to get an occasional hornworm down. I did get some phoenix worms (black soldier fly larvae) and none of them have been eaten yet, after 12 hours. Hopper, in particular is beginning to concern me. She is very interactive and comes right to my hand when I put it near or in her tank. As she looks up at it, she gets a bit wobbly and occasionally tips over. Her tail is still rather filled out but beginning to shrink a bit. Tomorrow is her weekly soak day and I will give her tank a thorough search and clean. I'm really tempted to turn the heat down to 80 if she doesn't eat tonight. If I do that, will her body absorb her eggs, or do they need to be passed?

Thank you!
Todd

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Can you post a picture of Hopper?

Have you troubleshot the items on Kyle's sticky: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...d-and-feeding-issues-/78187-gecko-eating.html

 

[amsdadtodd]

Thank you Elizabeth. I just took these four shots of her. As you can see, her tail is a bit thin, and her limbs look to be a little on the frail side also. Maybe I'm overly concerned and this is a normal part of the ovulation process, but I'd rather err on the side of caution. She has a great temperament and is always looking to be picked up!

I have gone through that troubleshooter, and honestly I keep coming up with ovulation.

Todd

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

When females are ovulating, 2 scenarios can occur. On the one hand, the ovulation will stop naturally after a few weeks or months. On the other hand, the ovulation will not stop and more ovums will be produced and accumulate. Both cases are not really good for young females because they will stop feeding for a while, and it will impact their growth rate. The second case is the worst but right now you don't have to fear that.

Stopping by lowering the temps avoid a lot of troubles. Last years 2 of my 8 months females stopped growing because of their ovulations, and they are now very little compared to other female geckos. If they won't eat in a week or 2, you should lower the temps.

When a female has stop feeding for a long time constipation is not a problem. After 2 weeks the bowels are empty. Where? With most European breeder, such as coollizard for example. When I had the case for the first time I asked various renown breeder. When the regular day temperature lowers, the body reacts as if the cool season is approaching, in the same way that we cool lower the temps to prepare them for hibernation. Most of the time it stops the production of ovums. It's better than having female stop feeding and losing weight for months until they reach a critical point when you can't breed them. I did 5 times (3 times last year after the 2 first cases, 2 times this year), in the following way. All females are in good shape now.

Basically after 2 weeks without feeding, the bowels are empty, so lowering the temps every 3 days until the temperature reach 80 is simply using a natural mechanism. However in this case we trick the body to stop the ovulation. When you breed a lot of geckos, and of course when you've got a lot a females, bad ovulations are not uncommon. Going to the vet will result in an injection to force the gecko to lay her eggs, and vets don't like that since adjusting the correct amount to inject is not easy and could result to the death of the animal, or in the case of geckos who keep accumulating ovarian follicles, the vet will most likely open the gecko are remove them. My vets favors the simulation of the cold period, since it will do less harm to the geckos.

1 July 2015:

I'm still trying to entice the girls to eat, so far I'm just able to get an occasional hornworm down. I did get some phoenix worms (black soldier fly larvae) and none of them have been eaten yet, after 12 hours. Hopper, in particular is beginning to concern me. She is very interactive and comes right to my hand when I put it near or in her tank. As she looks up at it, she gets a bit wobbly and occasionally tips over. Her tail is still rather filled out but beginning to shrink a bit. Tomorrow is her weekly soak day and I will give her tank a thorough search and clean. I'm really tempted to turn the heat down to 80 if she doesn't eat tonight. If I do that, will her body absorb her eggs, or do they need to be passed?

Thank you!
Todd

Todd ~

I see what you mean about Hopper. :/

What have you heard about limiting hornworms? They do contain a lot of moisture.

Partial hornworm analysis (if this is accurate):
Protein: 9%
Fat: 3.07%
Calcium: 46.4mg/100mg
Moisture: 85%

• Will Poppy and Hopper eat turkestan roaches right now?
• Have you access to small Blaptica dubia?
• Wondering why you are soaking them weekly. That's probably somewhat stressful.
• arawn's advice seems credible.
• I hope that Aliza [MENTION=8562]acpart[/MENTION] will stop by this thread soon to offer suggestions about ovulating young female leos.

 

[amsdadtodd]

Thank you Elizabeth.
My concern with the hornworms is only that they may get spoiled on them. However if that is the only thing I can get them to eat, then I'd rather spoil them than starve them. Both girls (Hopper and Berry) have not been so enthusiastic about the phoenix worms yet. Mealworms have also been less enticing over the last several days. It's been several weeks since either girl ate a Turkestan roach, I've been trying one at a time in each of their tanks once a week. I can usually get dubia roaches, although none of my leo's have been enthusiastic about them in the past. I will see if there are any available tomorrow when I get some hornworms.
The weekly soak was something I started several months ago, as Berry had been having some shedding issues with it sticking to the top of her head. It seemed to help her, so I tried the same for Hopper, more as a preventative measure than anything. Hopper has always waded through her water dish often anyway. I think Aliza has responded to some past questions I've had, and I believe also is in the same part of the country as me, so any advice there would certainly be appreciated.
I am ready to try arawn's advice if Hopper doesn't eat tomorrow.

I did just put a small cricket in with her, and she took interest. I hope to check on her shortly and find it gone, but my expectations are not too high right now.

Thank you!
Todd

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

You're definitely welcome, as always, Todd.

Here's hoping Hopper & Berry eat soon.

 

[amsdadtodd]

By way of a quick update, Hopper did not eat the cricket last night, nor hornworms this afternoon.

Berry seems to be doing fine, she ate hornworms this afternoon, and I'm going to see if I can entice her to eat some phoenix worms tonight.

I have begun lowering temps in Hoppers tank, right now, her warm side is 85 and the cool side is 77, which is the temp I keep my herp room. If she eats, I won't lower it any more, if she doesn't I will drop it again in a few days, aiming to gradually drop the warm side to 80 over the next 4 days.

Todd

 

[acpart]

I haven't read the whole thread, so I may have missed something. Why are you lowering the temps? To stop her from ovulating?

Aliza

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I haven't read the whole thread, so I may have missed something. Why are you lowering the temps? To stop her from ovulating?

Aliza

This thread has received some suggestions regarding ovulation in young leopard geckos from arawn, a breeder of leopard geckos. To see the suggestions please read posts 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, and 13.

 

[amsdadtodd]

Hello Aliza, thank you for looking in.
To summarize, Hopper has been losing some body mass due not not eating much. It appears that the reason is due to ovulation, so, yes, I've begun lowering her temps in an effort to stop the ovulation, per arawn's suggestion. I would like to know if this causes a leo to re-absorb eggs or does she have to pass them?

Thank you,
Todd

 

[acpart]

No idea for sure, but I've certainly had female leopard geckos absorb their eggs after I saw ovulation. Unfortunately this happened when I didn't want it to! I would guess that if there are already eggs well on their way to calcification, they would probably be laid.

Aliza

 

[amsdadtodd]

thank you! I'm really concerned about my little girl, she seems a bit undernourished right now and I really want to get her strong again! From what I've read, ovulation seems pretty taxing on them, and she started it much smaller than my other female.

Todd

 

[Keeboard]

Around 8 months to a year, feeding them every 3 days is better to stimulate their appetite. Once adults, once every 5 days is better.

Every three days when baby and every five when adult?! Baby's should eat daily and adults every other day!

 

[arawn]

Every three days when baby and every five when adult?! Baby's should eat daily and adults every other day!

When did I say to feed them every 3 day as a baby? 8 months is not a baby. From where did you get your informations? Your affirmation proves that you only use various data collected on forums and that you have no real knowledge of the species. Their metabolism is made NOT TO FEED ON EXTENDED PERIODS. In the wild , they do not eat every other day. Ask Ron Tremper, and renown breeders, and you will see that adults are not to be feed every other day to prevent various troubles concerning picky behavior. How do you do in winter? When they do not eat for 3 month when they hibernate? Do you breed them without making them hibernate? If you do, you reduce the ovules quality and you prevent your females from recovering.

On top of various breeders, I ask biologists specizalied in reptiles, such a a friend from Germany and a gecko specialist from France. Before blindly answering to this post with a common "noob forum rule", please, study the metabolism of the species.

 

[Keeboard]

Let me rephrase that: every three days for geckos under a year old?! I know TONS about leopard geckos! I know the need three hides: moist, cool, and warm, they need a heat pad rather than a lamp, sand is a horrible substrate, and much more! Nearly everywhere says ones under a year old need to be fed daily and every other day for adults! Here are some below:

 

[Keeboard]

What Do Leopard Geckos Eat » The Complete Leopard Gecko Diet Guide
Leopard Gecko Care Sheet
How to Care for a Leopard Gecko (with Pictures) - wikiHow
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...al-info-intros-and-pics/31187-feed-gecko.html
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111127165834AAKBwjG
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081119135117AADsdam

 

[arawn]

Look, you know the "bases". DO you breed them? I do, I haven't go only 2 or 3 geckos, I've got 20 adults and around 35 juveniles right now. I'm not relying on websites and various forums data. But on real data for breeders. DO you know who Tremper is? Are you using real scientific studies as a base?
The following geckos are all born at home and feed according to Tremper, geckomaniax, Fran loktha, and various German/US breeders with 10 to 35 years of experience. They all have a 3 month hibernation too each year. Do you think they are not healthy? I'm not only using "common knowledge" commonly shared to avoid people not to take care of them well, but experience from actual breeder. The rules you are mentionning are rules made common because most people can't even take care of them if they don't have rules. FOr example, say that a gecko eat better every 4 to 5 days. Most people who are lazy will extend this period to 3 mealworms every week. The 2 days thing is to avoid people not feeding them well enough. The same rule leads most geckos to obesity, so a decrease of fertility, and also lead them to be very picky eaters, since they get bored of the food. For 3 years I'm feeding them like, and hopefully, these 3 years proved that the advices from renown breeders are correct.