JessJohnson87
New member
In the wild they have no choice, either eat or starve. I monitor him when he eats, so if he does have trouble, I can step in.
Leopard Gecko: Soon to be new owner - Heating Query.
- Thread starter Zux
- Start date
amsdadtodd
New member
As keepers, I think it's our responsibility to encourage the survival skills which our pets had in nature, as well as provide them with optimal nutrition. We all know a leo can chew quite well, and this video shows this to be one of their survival skills. I always have thought the guidelines about food size compared to spacing between the eyes was a bit arbitrary. I don't see anything wrong with allowing them to exercise this instinct.
Todd
Todd
Zux
New member
Couldn't agree more Todd, its cool to see different keepers opinions on things though and its very important for us to avoid getting stuck in the mentality of "this is the rule I was told to follow" and then blindly do so without being open to changing opinion on husbandry etc.
Now of course I would by no means suggest ignoring all sense and feeding huge adult roaches and Locusts to your Geckos all the time, but I really do feel as though we don't need to feed small insects at all times either.
Sometimes I offer a larger roach nymph or locust hopper (these are the only two feeder insects I regularly feed which have hard exoskeletons) and I can tell she has a much higher degree of stimulation from hunting these large, juicy ones than the smaller which are gone in a single bite. I think it is important to only do this however when you are more confident of what your Gecko is capable of as it certainly introduces a degree of risk particularly for the newer owner.
Another example is many keepers will suggest a warm side reaching a max 93F but I have seen many cases where a Gecko will choose to spend time basking on a hot spot in the 95F+ range as and when they feel comfortable doing so, their wild environments vary a great deal (and do not feature pulse proportionally controlled temperature's) and they are extremely good at managing their preferred body temperature's themselves, the key when offering them a greater range is to ensure they have the number of choices also so that they may choose where to be, when and for how long.
With all that said, the basic advice around everything from feeder insect sizes to how much heat we provide is very important as a base for any new owner and without it I would have been lost as to what do and where to learn from but again, its important to be open at the same time. We are constantly learning about these creatures and what they need.
- Shane
Now of course I would by no means suggest ignoring all sense and feeding huge adult roaches and Locusts to your Geckos all the time, but I really do feel as though we don't need to feed small insects at all times either.
Sometimes I offer a larger roach nymph or locust hopper (these are the only two feeder insects I regularly feed which have hard exoskeletons) and I can tell she has a much higher degree of stimulation from hunting these large, juicy ones than the smaller which are gone in a single bite. I think it is important to only do this however when you are more confident of what your Gecko is capable of as it certainly introduces a degree of risk particularly for the newer owner.
Another example is many keepers will suggest a warm side reaching a max 93F but I have seen many cases where a Gecko will choose to spend time basking on a hot spot in the 95F+ range as and when they feel comfortable doing so, their wild environments vary a great deal (and do not feature pulse proportionally controlled temperature's) and they are extremely good at managing their preferred body temperature's themselves, the key when offering them a greater range is to ensure they have the number of choices also so that they may choose where to be, when and for how long.
With all that said, the basic advice around everything from feeder insect sizes to how much heat we provide is very important as a base for any new owner and without it I would have been lost as to what do and where to learn from but again, its important to be open at the same time. We are constantly learning about these creatures and what they need.
- Shane
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cricket4u
New member
The thing is they will eat anything in order to survive. I'm sure most of us have seen( on tv) at some point reptiles consume a prey too large and die shortly afterwards. I say better safe than sorry after all the chain of events I've seen. I've heard so many times, my leo started refusing roaches, hasn't pooped, appears to be straining, is laying in the warmest area with eyes closed for 2 days, etc. When I begin to question, one thing they all had in common, fed a large roach. Not to mention the dehydration struggle in captivity most face.
I forgot to mention, I know of a leo that suffered impaction with a hornworm, so careful on the size even with soft bodied insects.
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amsdadtodd
New member
Shane, I just recently posted a reference to the "rule of thumb" way of rearing which we all use to some degree. While it's not bad to do so, it is often short-sighted to so without understanding the basis for the particular "rule".
I think one perfect example is the sand vs no sand discussion which comes up all the time. Many successful keepers use sand, despite the warnings proliferated against it. I don't use it, and generally advise against it, but also point out that many folks have great success with it.
The post in which I mentioned the "rule of thumb" was in response to the question "how quickly is calcium absorbed". In this instance, the number of variables to consider before answering the question is too big to give a general answer, so the rule of thumb for supplementing calcium is a convenient and generally safe way to avoid a fairly complex Matlab session to come up with a range of answers.
So, yes, rule of thumb is generally safe, but it's always best to know the science and rationale behind it.
Todd
I think one perfect example is the sand vs no sand discussion which comes up all the time. Many successful keepers use sand, despite the warnings proliferated against it. I don't use it, and generally advise against it, but also point out that many folks have great success with it.
The post in which I mentioned the "rule of thumb" was in response to the question "how quickly is calcium absorbed". In this instance, the number of variables to consider before answering the question is too big to give a general answer, so the rule of thumb for supplementing calcium is a convenient and generally safe way to avoid a fairly complex Matlab session to come up with a range of answers.
So, yes, rule of thumb is generally safe, but it's always best to know the science and rationale behind it.
Todd
Zux
New member
Exactly, for the most part all the general guidelines one will receive, in particular on the better forums are good advice, but are indeed just that.
- Shane
Zux
New member
Impaction from a large horn-worm, wow now that is shocking !
amsdadtodd
New member
Not to "pile on", but I would also question whether the impaction was from a hornworm, or was the hornworm the last thing the leo ate before the impaction became apparent? Those things have the consistency of baby mush, with the exception of that little hard piece that develops on the end periodically.
Todd
Todd
JessJohnson87
New member
Not "piling on" either but had an experience to share. I had a beardie, years ago, die from impaction of mealworms. Did not know at the time that mealworms could cause impaction and kill an animal, so I started feeding smaller mealworms to all my lizards, except for 2. I was devastated and felt guilty, but at the same time it was a learning experience for me. If I feel like an animal cannot eat something, I feed it something smaller. Roaches are somewhat like mush to, doesn't take much to squish one. I always try to encourage a natural instinct in an animal, whether it be a dog or cat or even a reptile. No sense in trying to "domesticate" everything. Maybe that's the little bit of tree hugging hippie in me, who knows.
Zux
New member
I meant to say earlier by the way, Roaches and Locusts are the only two feeders with harder exoskeleton I regularly feed, I tend to avoid mealworms and superworms only feeding the the freshly molted of those. I try to feed like 11 different types weekly plus a few enrichment feeders just because I think variety is so important for their health and happiness.
It seems like there is a lot of soft bodied feeders available to us as keepers now and I feel its beneficial that these at least make up part of Leos diets.
- Shane
It seems like there is a lot of soft bodied feeders available to us as keepers now and I feel its beneficial that these at least make up part of Leos diets.
- Shane
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amsdadtodd
New member
While it's obvious to prefer to avoid the possibility of impaction, I think it's also important to at least keep the diet realistic their natural one. I do use mealworms, as well as Turkestan roaches and crickets, regularly. Until recently, I used a lot of hornworms, but now that Hopper is happy to eat crickets again, I've cut back significantly on them. The reason being, these are really "engineered feeders", meaning they don't exist in the wild in the format with which we buy them. In nature, they are normally toxic because their preferred diet is tomato leaves, which are deadly to both our pets and us, in sufficient quantity.
Anyway, I think it's appropriate to feed our pets some insects which do have some un-digestible chitin because that is part of the diet they evolved to eat. We don't yet know the why's and wherefores of everything, so we should minimize our alterations of what is natural. It's always possible that intact chitin serves a purpose in the system, much like gizzard stones do in many birds and lizards.
Todd
Anyway, I think it's appropriate to feed our pets some insects which do have some un-digestible chitin because that is part of the diet they evolved to eat. We don't yet know the why's and wherefores of everything, so we should minimize our alterations of what is natural. It's always possible that intact chitin serves a purpose in the system, much like gizzard stones do in many birds and lizards.
Todd
JessJohnson87
New member
I agree! I fed the last hornworm the other night and do not plan on buying any for a while, plus the store was out when I went to buy more roaches. I try to spice up his diet with each feeding, might go get crickets tomorrow and feed since he hasn't had those in a while. Also want to try supers with him and see what he does.
Also it is hard for us to mimic every insect they consume in the wild, since most of the species of bugs may not be available here. Like locusts are not available in the US as a feeder insect unless we breed wild ones but then we run the risk introducing parasites and other things that could make our critters sick.
Also it is hard for us to mimic every insect they consume in the wild, since most of the species of bugs may not be available here. Like locusts are not available in the US as a feeder insect unless we breed wild ones but then we run the risk introducing parasites and other things that could make our critters sick.
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Zux
New member
I really like the idea of replicating the wild diet but its just not doable for us as keepers, not fully anyway, so I think the best thing we can do is offer as wide a variety as possible.
On the subject of hard bodied insects they are of value for sure and a certain amount of that Chitin forms part of the roughage the gecko needs in its diet I would imagine.
Luckily here in the UK we can get pretty much everything on the market feeder insect wise with the exception of Hornworms. They are illegal here sadly. But I guess I should count my gecko and I lucky, many people find themselves with a much shorter list of what is legal in their country/state.
- Shane
On the subject of hard bodied insects they are of value for sure and a certain amount of that Chitin forms part of the roughage the gecko needs in its diet I would imagine.
Luckily here in the UK we can get pretty much everything on the market feeder insect wise with the exception of Hornworms. They are illegal here sadly. But I guess I should count my gecko and I lucky, many people find themselves with a much shorter list of what is legal in their country/state.
- Shane
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amsdadtodd
New member
NEVER feed wild caught food in countries other than those where leo's are native! Even there, it's better to feed raised! Not only don't we know what parasites or critters we may be introducing, but fertilizers and pesticides are very easily introduced! For the same reason, I always tell people not to let their leo's run around outside. It's just not worth the risks!
Todd
JessJohnson87
New member
Exactly, I was just giving an example of a no no on breeding wild caught insects, if its not available where you live, stick to what is. I know in the wild they can eat ants and I found a company that sells ants for the horned lizards that shoot blood out of their eyes (so wickedly cool and I was looking into getting one years ago). But they are so small that I don't think the leo would find much interest in them.
amsdadtodd
New member
I've never heard of anyone feeding their leo's ants! Although, I guess in the wild it's likely they will eat them also! And, what an interesting business model, raising and selling ants!
I've read about that horned lizard, but never seen one yet. That would certainly be interesting!
I've read about that horned lizard, but never seen one yet. That would certainly be interesting!
JessJohnson87
New member
I saw some at the reptile expo they had at Hampton and I saw someone that breeds them years ago at a show in Raleigh. I wanted one but their diet consists mostly of ants. Blackwater reptile out of Florida sells feeder ants for them.
In Utah we can get wax worm, meal worms, super worms, crickets and Roaches, and fruit flies. I shop around online for different kinds of bugs. We have so many different kinds of Reptiles that need a variety that's the only way to buy them so it doesn't cost a lot. Question can the baby Gecko eat wingless fruit flies? I was buying pin head crickets and the guy tried to sell me the fruit flies for Tiny. Tiny is my C. Mitratus and I didn't know if she could eat them or not. I don't like to follow what the pet stores tell me because there not always right. Or it someone else just learning.
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Hey Jonnette ~
Zux/Shane began this thread just for his leo Bell. We've been trying to stay on topic.
It's best to continue your questions about Tiny's care on your original thread. Since some of us have already subscribed to your C. mitratus thread we automatically get notifications when you post. BTW, your picture of Tiny did not post.
Did you see Aliza's and my feedback?
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Zux
New member
Hey guys,
So just as a point of information for anybody who might have considered the product themselves and wanted to know how it worked out.
I received my Repashy Products in the mail today. I decided to try the Calcium Plus for Bell's feeding tonight and it was extremely obvious she liked the smell and then the taste of the product. I lightly dusted a Locust (Locusta Migratoria) - (her least favorite of the locust species she has tried so far) and she immediately came rushing out to this rather inactive locust which was just sitting where I placed it.
She couldn't see it at first because she was facing the other way inside her hide so I guess the smell made her come extra quickly, she ran up to it, licked it a number of times and even though it still didn't move she wolfed it down like she never normally would with such an inactive insect. She was then following my fingers around (which must have had residual powder on them) so I quickly removed them lest they end up suffering the fate of that locust :biggrin: .
I'll let you guys know how things continue to go with this and the other products later this week.
- Shane
So just as a point of information for anybody who might have considered the product themselves and wanted to know how it worked out.
I received my Repashy Products in the mail today. I decided to try the Calcium Plus for Bell's feeding tonight and it was extremely obvious she liked the smell and then the taste of the product. I lightly dusted a Locust (Locusta Migratoria) - (her least favorite of the locust species she has tried so far) and she immediately came rushing out to this rather inactive locust which was just sitting where I placed it.
She couldn't see it at first because she was facing the other way inside her hide so I guess the smell made her come extra quickly, she ran up to it, licked it a number of times and even though it still didn't move she wolfed it down like she never normally would with such an inactive insect. She was then following my fingers around (which must have had residual powder on them) so I quickly removed them lest they end up suffering the fate of that locust :biggrin: .
I'll let you guys know how things continue to go with this and the other products later this week.
- Shane