Changing feeders food

[Gekkotan]

Hi, I decided to change the cat food I offered to my crickets and roaches as I am convinced that this is a poor choice. As I am living in Brazil, bearded dragon food is not avaliable so I decided to go on food for chickens. There are 2 brands recomended here on GU and naturally they are not avaliable here too, so I looked for a similar one which seems to be quite equivalent regarding the nutricional chart, but can easily be corrected. Well, I found that the one I plan to use had phytose, what seems to promote fosforus absortion. It seems at least one of the recomended brands here also got, so, I am curious to know if I can still use it. Does anyone already noticed that? Thanks in advance and sorry the bad english

 

[JessJohnson87]

If you feed them low phosphorous foods, then it should not be a problem. So long as the chicken feed does not contain diatomaceous earth, it should be fine to feed them that.

The Anatomy of Gut-Loading | Ingredients & Nutritional Info | Much Ado About Chameleons <--there are some good dry foods you can feed insects in this article. They are the ones that are at the end of the list, ie wheat bran, flax seed.

 

[Gekkotan]

Thanks Jess. It has a nice Ca/P concentration, no problem then. I think I will just add sunflower seeds and paprika for more protein and Vit. A, plus some vitamin suplement. I was thinking in complementing Vit E, but I am not sure if I need too as long I use the supplement. Here are the product I am thinking in use, besides it is in portuguese, I think you can readily understand the chart down in the page
LINHA DO CAMPO - OVOS AVES PRODUTORAS - PCT 5 KG - Nutrição Animal / Rações | Agroline

 

[JessJohnson87]

Google with translate for me :coverlaugh:

If you have a good multivitamin then I would not add Vit E. Vit. E is more for skin, hail and nails but adding some extra Vit. A never hurts.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi Gekkotan ~

Good to hear from you!

Changing your feeder diet will be welcome news for your geckos!

• Is there also a listing of ingredients on that website?
• Make sure this poultry feed contains NO diatomaceous earth.
• Keep this poultry feed in an airtight container to protect it from excessive humidity.

Here's a Google translation of the poultry food you are considering.

Product description
Guarantee Levels
Humidity (Max) 130,00 g / kg
Crude Protein (Min) 140,00 g / kg
Ethereal Extract (Min) 28.00 g / kg
Gross fiber (Max) 90.00 g / kg
Mineral matter (Max) 200,00 g / kg
Calcium (Min) 38.00 g / kg
Calcium (Max) 45.00 g / kg
Phosphorus (Min) 6000.00 mg / kg
Sodium (Min) 2000.00 mg / kg
Iron (Min) 27,00 mg / kg
Copper (Max) 5.00 mg / kg
Zinc (Min) 45,00 mg / kg
Manganese (Min) 63.00 g / kg
Iodine (Min) 0.90 mg / kg
Selenium (Min) 0.31 mg / kg
Cobalt (Min) 0.18 mg / kg
Vitamin A (Min) 8000.00 IU / kg
Vitamin D3 (Min) 2,000.00 IU / kg
Vitamin E (Min) 15,00 IU / kg
Vitamin K3 (Min) 2.00 mg / kg
Vitamin B1 (Min) 1.00 mg / kg
Vitamin B2 (Min) 4.00 mg / kg
Niacin (Min) 10,00 mg / kg
Pantothenic Acid (Min) 10,00 mg / kg
Vitamin B6 (Min) 3.00 mg / kg
Folic Acid (Min) 1.00 mg / kg
Vitamin B12 (Min) 8.00 mcg / kg
Hill (Min) 480.00 mg / kg
Biotin (Max) 0.10 mg / kg
Lysine (Min) 5000.00 mg / kg
Methionine (Min) 2000.00 mg / kg
Phytase (Min) 30.00 u / kg
Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Min) 2,4x10E9 u / kg

Additional Information
Indication: Ration formulated for creating birds producing eggs.

Characteristics
· Eggs much more Yellow gems.
· Nutritionally balanced.
· Best quality bark.
· Improved feed conversion.
· Strict control of ingredients, ensuring security to its creation

Benefits
- Natural Additives
- natural pigmentation of egg yolk
- Improved cost and benefit
- With digestive enzymes
- Increased digestibility
- With probiotic intestinal health

How to use
Provide the product from the 18th week of age or egg 1. We recommend offer diet 2 times a day in sufficient quantities (100 to 120 g / bird / day) in constant time.

Presentation
Packaging 5 kg and 20 kg.

Shelf Life: 90 days from the date of manufacture.

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PS: I would NOT use wheat bran or wheat germ at all. As far as I can tell both wheat bran and wheat germ contain huge amounts of phosphorus!

Click: Foods List

 

[Gekkotan]

Hi Gekkotan ~

Good to hear from you!

Changing your feeder diet will be welcome news for your geckos!

• Is there also a listing of ingredients on that website?
• Make sure this poultry feed contains NO diatomaceous earth.
• Keep this poultry feed in an airtight container to protect it from excessive humidity.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

PS: I would NOT use wheat bran or wheat germ at all. As far as I can tell both wheat bran and wheat germ contain huge amounts of phosphorus!

Click: Foods List

About the ingredients , I havent found yet. I will try to find the food in stores this weekend, just after to find out if it is diatomaceous earth-free.
Here I use oat bran and wheat for meal worms, but I am convinced that these, as well as using cat food for the crickets, were the cause of some recent failures. I am reticent for changing all the substrate for this food, maybe I shall change it partially at least as I use mealworms for food only when my crickets are too small or too old for the geckos.
Well, thanks again, both of you

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

About the ingredients , I havent found yet. I will try to find the food in stores this weekend, just after to find out if it is diatomaceous earth-free.
Here I use oat bran and wheat for meal worms, but I am convinced that these, as well as using cat food for the crickets, were the cause of some recent failures. I am reticent for changing all the substrate for this food, maybe I shall change it partially at least as I use mealworms for food only when my crickets are too small or too old for the geckos.
Well, thanks again, both of you

:banana:, Gekkotan! You are definitely welcome. That's the power of the internet.

"Diatomaceous earth-free" is the bottom line for safety here!

Sometimes my Foods List link (from the United States Department of Agriculture) does not work. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Right now I'm looking for the wheat germ, wheat bran, and oats links I've saved somewhere that show the huge amount of phosphorus in those foods. I would not use any of them as mealworm bedding. I've just recently started a mealworm culture. I'm using ground Albers All Purpose Poultry Feed as the bedding.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

We wish to approximate something close to a 1.5-2.0 calcium : 1.0 phosphorus ratio with our feeders.

We lightly dust bugs and worms to adjust the calcium : phosphorus imbalance found in them. Dusting should not be the "whole" story. I think that feeding high phosphorus foods to the bugs/worms makes this impossible. That's why it is best to feed bugs and worms the best dry diet possible plus adding low phosphorus/high calcium veggies (pesticide-free collard greens and dandelion greens).

• Click: Foods List
• Enter some food like wheat germ
• Scroll down for calcium and phosphorus per 100 grams, for instance, and compare
• Wheat Germ -- Show Foods
  calcium 39
  phosphorus 842
  ratio: 1 part calcium : 22 parts phosphorus
  
  
• Wheat Bran -- Show Foods
  calcium 73
  phosphorus 1,013
  ratio: 1 part calcium : 14 parts phosphorus
  
  
• Oats -- Show Foods
  calcium 54
  phosphorus 523
  ratio: 1 part calcium : 10 parts phosphorus

 

[Gekkotan]

Yes, indeed is too much. It is funny how half ignorance its worse than a full one. I have in the past look for a high calcium natural substrate to mealworms and came up with this mix, but never realized that if it is also rich in phosphorus, it can represent a worse cenario than before. Well, it is never too late to improve our knowledge and pratices. Now I have to change the foor I offer for hydration. Here there are some diferences in the greens. Dandelions are no avaliable for example. I have seen them in some gardens inside the city, but may be contaminated. I used potates and beets as stable, now I may substitute them for orange as stable and mustard and collards one or 2 times a week. Yesterday I bought the chicken food as it is diatomaceous earth-free. Tomorrow I post here the ingredients

We wish to approximate something close to a 1.5-2.0 calcium : 1.0 phosphorus ratio with our feeders.

We lightly dust bugs and worms to adjust the calcium : phosphorus imbalance found in them. Dusting should not be the "whole" story. I think that feeding high phosphorus foods to the bugs/worms makes this impossible. That's why it is best to feed bugs and worms the best dry diet possible plus adding low phosphorus/high calcium veggies (pesticide-free collard greens and dandelion greens).

• Click: Foods List
• Enter some food like wheat bran
• Scroll down for calcium and phosphorus per 100 grams, for instance, and compare
• Wheat Bran -- Show Foods
  calcium 73
  phosphorus 1,013
  ratio: 0.07
  
  
• Wheat Germ -- Show Foods
  calcium 39
  phosphorus 842
  ratio:
  
  
• Oats -- Show Foods
  calcium 54
  phosphorus 523
  ratio: 0.10

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Yes, indeed is too much. It is funny how half ignorance its worse than a full one. I have in the past look for a high calcium natural substrate to mealworms and came up with this mix, but never realized that if it is also rich in phosphorus, it can represent a worse cenario than before. Well, it is never too late to improve our knowledge and pratices. Now I have to change the foor I offer for hydration. Here there are some diferences in the greens. Dandelions are no avaliable for example. I have seen them in some gardens inside the city, but may be contaminated. I used potates and beets as stable, now I may substitute them for orange as stable and mustard and collards one or 2 times a week. Yesterday I bought the chicken food as it is diatomaceous earth-free. Tomorrow I post here the ingredients

I really agree with you. I am amazed at how some generally reputable gecko breeders swear by wheat bran and wheat germ for their mealworms! I've seen it happen more than once. One person doubted the validity of the United States Department of Agriculture links. By using/recommending wheat bran, wheat germ, or oats as a mealworm bedding, it seems like geckos might be doomed.

For sure, it is never too late to learn new and better ways of doing things. Is it possible for you to grow your own dandelions?

The good news is that the chicken food you have available is diatomaceous earth-free! I'm glad that you are searching for other staples.

• Click: beets - Show Foods
• Click: potatoes - raw (Can't get them to come up.)
• Click: paprika - Show Foods
  Paprika is an excellent dietary source of vitamin A. What I don't know is how much dietary vitamin A is safe. Would any excess be flushed out by the geckos' kidneys?

Just a couple weeks ago I noticed that organic dandelion greens were sold at a nearby grocery store. On my next trip I bought some for my crickets. They are really bitter, but the crickets are eating them.

 

[JessJohnson87]

Since we are on the subject of Chicken feed, I want to ask if this is the Sunfresh Crumbles you recommend. I can get it from Tractor Supply but I might try the feed and seed store by my house when I go up there to ask about incoming shipments of flower and vegetable plants.

Purina Layena Plus Omega-3 SunFresh Recipe Poultry Feed - For Life Out Here

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Since we are on the subject of Chicken feed, I want to ask if this is the Sunfresh Crumbles you recommend. I can get it from Tractor Supply but I might try the feed and seed store by my house when I go up there to ask about incoming shipments of flower and vegetable plants.

Purina Layena Plus Omega-3 SunFresh Recipe Poultry Feed - For Life Out Here

I will check with my friend and post to this thread, Jess.

 

[Gekkotan]

Exactly what I think. Actualy, I dont know why is so hard to change the mind regarding some practices in herpetoculture. Me included. For example, bioactive terrarium. It is a very propagated idea right now, everybody want to use it. Well, I know it comes with a lot of benefits for most of species, specially snakes and arachnids, but I dont know. I am inclined to make some terrariums in this way for testing, but I really dont accept very well the idea of a lizard or amphibians eating some insect that eat the lizards faeces or amphibian. Maybe is the idea of closing parasites cicles (perharps knowing most of the parasites are species-specific) specially because here in Brazil the only gecko species avaliable CB is leopard gecko and the ones I plan to keep WC. I am planning to try some bioactive terrariums as at least it will facilitate the individual adaptation. Lets see where it leads to...
Here are the ingredients. Seems a varied kinds o bran with chemical correction. If you are curious for any translation, just let me know...


Oh. BTW, I live in a building, so, unfortunately, no way to growing my own dandelions

I really agree with you. I am amazed at how some generally reputable gecko breeders swear by wheat bran and wheat germ for their mealworms! I've seen it happen more than once. One person doubted the validity of the United States Department of Agriculture links. By using/recommending wheat bran, wheat germ, or oats as a mealworm bedding, it seems like geckos might be doomed.

For sure, it is never too late to learn new and better ways of doing things. Is it possible for you to grow your own dandelions?

The good news is that the chicken food you have available is diatomaceous earth-free! I'm glad that you are searching for other staples.

• Click: beets - Show Foods
• Click: potatoes - raw (Can't get them to come up.)
• Click: paprika - Show Foods
  Paprika is an excellent dietary source of vitamin A. What I don't know is how much dietary vitamin A is safe. Would any excess be flushed out by the geckos' kidneys?

Just a couple weeks ago I noticed that organic dandelion greens were sold at a nearby grocery store. On my next trip I bought some for my crickets. They are really bitter, but the crickets are eating them.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hello ~

Thanks for sharing. I'll get back with you later today. Have to finish one more post before I go to sleep. Then it's off to bed. Gotta get up "early" this morning for my folkdancing class.

Bye for now Gekkotan,
Elizabeth

 

[hmarie186]

Since we are on the subject of Chicken feed, I want to ask if this is the Sunfresh Crumbles you recommend. I can get it from Tractor Supply but I might try the feed and seed store by my house when I go up there to ask about incoming shipments of flower and vegetable plants.

Purina Layena Plus Omega-3 SunFresh Recipe Poultry Feed - For Life Out Here

It is not the one with omegas added, although I don't think that it would hurt. Make sure to repackage it in gallon bags and store in the freezer to discourage grain mites (devastating to a feeder colony) and improve freshness. Truthfully I am getting away from the grain feeds and using solely fresh foods. There are enough scraps of what the dragon and I eat (and also what he DOESN'T eat) to feed all our colonies. There has been no change in growth or production and this way they are properly hydrated all the time (super important for our desert critters that have evolved to receive most of their moisture from the food they eat).

 

[JessJohnson87]

Thanks! I was going to try to find a small bag of it and try it out, easier said than done. I usually throw some of the beardie pellets in there and feed mostly fresh fruits and veggie's. I got my spring seed planting of some new greens to try with them done this weekend so I'll hopefully have some arugula, mustard and turnip greens by the summer.

Back on the original OP's question. I noticed that the chicken feed has BT (Bacillus thuringiensis) in it, which is a bacteria that kills caterpillars and one I was considering for dealing with my cabbage worm problem. So I'm not sure how this will affect your feeders.

 

[Gekkotan]

Back on the original OP's question. I noticed that the chicken feed has BT (Bacillus thuringiensis) in it, which is a bacteria that kills caterpillars and one I was considering for dealing with my cabbage worm problem. So I'm not sure how this will affect your feeders.

Thanks you for highlighting this Jess. Actually, there says that inside the pool of genes used in the transgenic ingredients, possibly are those from this species and/or the other ones. I do not believe this will be a problem for the geckos, only for the insects, so I think I will try this food only in one cricket box and, if it may prove ok, I shall use it in the others.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

......

Here are the ingredients. Seems a varied kinds o bran with chemical correction. If you are curious for any translation, just let me know... View attachment 38247 View attachment 38248

......

Do you see any problematic ingredients on this list?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Exactly what I think. Actualy, I dont know why is so hard to change the mind regarding some practices in herpetoculture. Me included. For example, bioactive terrarium. It is a very propagated idea right now, everybody want to use it. Well, I know it comes with a lot of benefits for most of species, specially snakes and arachnids, but I dont know. I am inclined to make some terrariums in this way for testing, but I really dont accept very well the idea of a lizard or amphibians eating some insect that eat the lizards faeces or amphibian. Maybe is the idea of closing parasites cicles (perharps knowing most of the parasites are species-specific) specially because here in Brazil the only gecko species avaliable CB is leopard gecko and the ones I plan to keep WC. I am planning to try some bioactive terrariums as at least it will facilitate the individual adaptation. Lets see where it leads to...

......

Bioactive vivariums are very popular. From what I've heard, they seem to work. They can also be beautiful.

Do you feel that our reluctance to try something different might stem from lack of confidence? When we are doing something that "mostly" works for us, change seems harder. I mean, change might improve some situation, but there is fear of going backwards. :|

 

[JessJohnson87]

Don't get me started on bio-active vivariums, I'm addicted now...