Beta Carotene for Vitamin A in Exo Terra Multivitamin

Marillion

Marillion

Member
Hello Everyone, I am addressing this post mainly to Elizabeth since I originally posted this at the end of her excellent Leopard Gecko care sheet. But I suppose this can serve as an introduction also since it is my first post here. :)

Hi Elizabeth,

I know that you don't recommend the use of the Exo Terra Multivitamin because you mentioned the non absorption of Beta Carotene for reptiles but I was wondering what you think about this study indicating Vitamin A absorption in geckos? A word of warning though to anyone reading this lab study, in typical clinical fashion, it was not a happy ending for the geckos participating for them to obtain their results...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29797444

I guess the reason I am asking is because being a new Leopard Gecko owner I recently purchased the Exo Terra Multivitamin so I was a bit worried I made the wrong choice.

I have a juvenile leopard gecko named Boop (my daughter named him) about 7-8 months old. We have had him for about 2.5 weeks now and I have a Zoo Med UVB lamp for light only and set to a timer for 12 hrs per day as well as a ceramic heater over his hot zone on a non proportional thermostat being used (29C during day and 21C at night on warm zone. Cool zone drops to 19-21 depending on season.) I also have an undertank heater set at a constant 33C. By all indications he seems healthy and happy though he is only wanting to eat every 2 days on average. Which I understand is normal. The substrate being used are ceramic tiles and he has a cool hide, a moist hide centered about 3/4 over the heat mat and a warm hide entirely on the heat mat in the hot zone. The tank is a 20 Gallon Long glass Zilla tank with a wire mesh top.
 
Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Welcome to Geckos Unlimited, Marillion! Let's continue here. I gotta run now. Hope to get back to this thread later today.

  1. How often/how long is Boop sticking out a leg or other body part under the UVB?
  2. What type and strength bulb are you using?
  3. Is it an Exo Terra? :(

It is my understanding that geckos need a wee bit of vitamin A acetate (retinol) to activate any beta carotene. That's why my vet recommends a wee pinch of a multivitamin containing vitamin A acetate @ only 1 feeding per week. The rest of vitamin A can be beta carotene.

For 22 click: GU’s Admin Hilde on Calcium, Vitamin A, & D3 Interactions, et cetera: posts 22, 48, 85, ***96: vits + CaCO3***
 
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Marillion

Marillion

Member
Thanks for the reply! To answer your questions:

1. While it is hard for me judge exactly how much or how long of a time period Boop is spending under the UVB bulb I have witnessed him on occasion sticking a leg or tail out of his warm hide. I have also caught him strolling around or climbing on top of some of the houses. I don't get to watch him as often as I would like because of our busy schedules.
2. The bulb is a Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 UVB This one here
3. I believe when you asked if it was an Exo Terrra you meant the bulb?

One other thing I should mention...I keep a small bottle cap of non-D3 calcium in his enclosure. Boop seems to like eating out of it fairly regularly. I have been using that instead of dusting with calcium but having read that post about no plain calcium in the enclosure I am having second thoughts... Though it is interesting to see where he had traveled during the night through the enclosure since he seems to enjoy walking into the small cap with the calcium in it! :)

Thanks for your insight.
 
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S

Sg612

Member
These studies aren’t perfect. I had the entire study on the iPhone I just traded in. Unfortunately, I forgot about a lot of stuff on that phone. I think it was only about 10? All female? What I did was use both to be on the safe side. Preformed vitamin a about twice a month and herptivite more frequently. I will add the gut loads contained vitamin a acetate.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29797444
Click to expand...

Added 18 May 2019 thanks to Sg612: https://www.researchgate.net/public...tion_in_leopard_geckos_Eublepharis_macularius
Click to expand...

Marillion ~ I'm familiar with the link you shared. Do you have access to the 8 page article?

I've shared this research with someone knowledgeable. That person indicated this study should be "taken with a grain of salt" for multiple reasons.
  • Very small study groups -- only 5 animals per group.
  • Liver biopsies should have been done before and after.
  • Group #1 = Cod liver oil group Retinol should have been used.
  • Group #2 = Beta carotene group
  • Group #3 = There was NO control group.
  • This research was finally published in a relatively obscure journal.

PS:
I shared links for multivitamins as well as calcium with D3 supplements in post 2. I believe Zoo Med's supplements are superior to Exo Terra's supplements for the following reasons.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Marillion said:
Thanks for the reply! To answer your questions:

1. While it is hard for me judge exactly how much or how long of a time period Boop is spending under the UVB bulb I have witnessed him on occasion sticking a leg or tail out of his warm hide. I have also caught him strolling around or climbing on top of some of the houses. I don't get to watch him as often as I would like because of our busy schedules.
2. The bulb is a Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 UVB This one here
3. I believe when you asked if it was an Exo Terrra you meant the bulb?

One other thing I should mention...I keep a small bottle cap of non-D3 calcium in his enclosure. Boop seems to like eating out of it fairly regularly. I have been using that instead of dusting with calcium but having read that post about no plain calcium in the enclosure I am having second thoughts... Though it is interesting to see where he had traveled during the night through the enclosure since he seems to enjoy walking into the small cap with the calcium in it! :)

Thanks for your insight.
Click to expand...

You're welcome. Yes, I meant an Exo Terra bulb.

Zoo Med's 5.0 mini-compact may shed adequate UVB on Boop within his 20 long enclosure: 30 x 12 x 12 inches tall if he cooperates. Even under adequate UVB Dr. Fran Baines (vet and lighting guru) strongly suggests giving a leo a backup dose of calcium with D3 at 1 feeding per month.

I'm not convinced that leopard geckos "know" how much calcium with D3 or multivitamins they need to stay healthy.

GU's winterminute shared this:
From GU's winterminute on 18 Jan 2019: re rescue of son's leo stuck in a build-in bookcase for ~90 minutes with outside wall temps ~30*F: "I think she's doing good. Thank you for asking! She's coming out a bit more at night. Last night she waded into her water dish which was funny to watch. I'm glad I got a camera otherwise I'd have no idea what happens when we go to bed. FYI for others, Wyze wireless cams are $25 and great little toys."​
 
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Marillion

Marillion

Member
Thanks very much Elizabeth and everyone else for sharing your knowledge. It is very much appreciated. It is great to know that if I need help and advice I know where to go!
 
Marillion

Marillion

Member
Elizabeth Freer said:
You're welcome. Yes, I meant an Exo Terra bulb.

Zoo Med's 5.0 mini-compact may shed adequate UVB on Boop within his 20 long enclosure: 30 x 12 x 12 inches tall if he cooperates. Even under adequate UVB Dr. Fran Baines (vet and lighting guru) strongly suggests giving a leo a backup dose of calcium with D3 at 1 feeding per month.

I'm not convinced that leopard geckos "know" how much calcium with D3 or multivitamins they need to stay healthy.

GU's winterminute shared this:
From GU's winterminute on 18 Jan 2019: re rescue of son's leo stuck in a build-in bookcase for ~90 minutes with outside wall temps ~30*F: "I think she's doing good. Thank you for asking! She's coming out a bit more at night. Last night she waded into her water dish which was funny to watch. I'm glad I got a camera otherwise I'd have no idea what happens when we go to bed. FYI for others, Wyze wireless cams are $25 and great little toys."​
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to drag up this thread again Elizabeth. But I was doing some reading and I ran across this:
https://zoomed.com/wp-content/uploads/Choosing-Correct-UVB-Lamp-2018-07.pdf

It was a link from one of your posts on lighting. I am thinking now that I should not have bought the 5.0 Zoo Med mini bulb and should instead have bought the 10.0 mini bulb or the 5.0 regular size bulb based on the info in that sheet. I am not convinced Boop is getting enough UVB based on that data.

Just to refresh what I have, it is a 20 gallon long Terrarium with a mesh top and the bulb is in an 8.5" reflective dome. I am also using an Arcadia Deep Heat Projector in another dome beside it (Heat projector is completely over the Warm side to the right and the light is in the middle. I did consider getting the Arcadia Shade Dweller pro but I don't think the fixture would fit properly over the terrarium without changing the fixture for the Heat projector.

What is your opinion? One option would be to provide the Calcium with D3 2 or 3 times a month to compensate for the 5.0 Mini until next year when I purchase a 10.0 mini perhaps or a full size 5.0....

I should also mention, although I addressed this post to Elizabeth I would welcome opinions by others as well! I'm just hoping to provide the best possible environment for our little guy.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Marillion said:
I'm sorry to drag up this thread again Elizabeth. But I was doing some reading and I ran across this:
https://zoomed.com/wp-content/uploads/Choosing-Correct-UVB-Lamp-2018-07.pdf

It was a link from one of your posts on lighting. I am thinking now that I should not have bought the 5.0 Zoo Med mini bulb and should instead have bought the 10.0 mini bulb or the 5.0 regular size bulb based on the info in that sheet. I am not convinced Boop is getting enough UVB based on that data.

Just to refresh what I have, it is a 20 gallon long Terrarium with a mesh top and the bulb is in an 8.5" reflective dome. I am also using an Arcadia Deep Heat Projector in another dome beside it (Heat projector is completely over the Warm side to the right and the light is in the middle. I did consider getting the Arcadia Shade Dweller pro but I don't think the fixture would fit properly over the terrarium without changing the fixture for the Heat projector.

What is your opinion? One option would be to provide the Calcium with D3 2 or 3 times a month to compensate for the 5.0 Mini until next year when I purchase a 10.0 mini perhaps or a full size 5.0....

I should also mention, although I addressed this post to Elizabeth I would welcome opinions by others as well! I'm just hoping to provide the best possible environment for our little guy.
Click to expand...

Yesterday I phoned Zoo Med and spoke with their product support specialist. We both agreed that Zoo Med's 10.0 Reptisun bulb would be too strong!

For a 20 long enclosure (30 x 12 x 12 inches tall) she recommends either the bulb you have (Zoo Med's Repitisun mini compact fluorescent 5.0) or Zoo Med's standard compact fluorescent 5.0 bulb. As long as your leo "basks" within the yellow zone into the green zone (as per linked chart) he should be OK with a single dose of supplemental powdered D3 @ 1 feeding per month.

Fran Baines, DVM, is sometimes on Zoo Med's team. Dr. Baines is also a reptile lighting "guru" on facebook.


These days how often have you seen Boop soaking up UVB rays? How long does he stay put?
 
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S

Sg612

Member
It is very common for them to simply expose a body part, usually the tail like this: at 13:17 https://youtu.be/CfSrVkFCyic Thanks to JTB:).

Zoo Med T5 5.0 MINI bulb

I would replace this every 6 months because compact bulbs are known to decay faster. It will obviously cover a smaller area than the long tubes and so the placement matters. How about posting a picture?
 
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Marillion

Marillion

Member
Thank you very kindly both for the answers! Sorry for my delayed response. Initially, I thought since the Zoo Med chart showed the same amount of UV exposure at 12" for both the 10.0 Mini Fluorescent as for the 5.0 Standard Fluorescent bulb I thought they would both serve the same purpose. Also, since the Leopard Gecko hails from more of a desert rather than tropical habitat I really thought the 10.0 would be appropriate. But you took the time and effort to contact Zoo Med for me (thank you very, very much Elizabeth!) I have to follow the advice from experts. Since the 5.0 regular bulb doesn't seem very available in my area I was thinking the 10.0 Mini would also serve, but it appears not. I already ordered the 10.0 from Amazon and it is due to arrive today. :( I guess we should not use it...

As to how often and how long Boop spends basking, it is really hard to say. I have observed him a couple of times the past two weeks for at least 10 minutes basking on top of a slate rock in his enclosure. Beyond that I am not sure as I don't have nearly enough time to observe him as I would like with our busy and hectic lives with all the sports our kids are involved in. Keeping him clean and well fed is the best we can do right now. Most every time during the day though, he stays put inside his warm hides. Temps as mentioned before: 33 C under his warm dry hide, air temp in warm side around 27-28C mid zone around 25-27. Cool zone air temp is 21-22C. Warm hide is mostly on the heated UTH side as is the humid hide. Using the Zoo Med Repti therm 30-40 Gallon undertank heater (12"x8") and using an Arcadia Deep Heat Projector. All on thermostats with thermometers in all 3 zones and humidity sensors on cool side and warm side. Ceramic tile throughout. I agree posting a picture of his enclosure would be a good idea. I will work on getting one posted later today or tomorrow if I can!

Ultimately, I would love to purchase the viewing cam you posted about earlier Elizabeth. But considering it would cost about $50 here in Canada and we have had a lot of expenses lately I am not sure if we can buy that in the near future. Though now since I am really considering buying the Arcadia Pro ShadeDweller T5 UVB kit ($84 here in Canada with shipping) realistically the viewing cam will not happen anytime soon.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Hang onto the 10.0 mini compact fluorescent until you hear from me again.

/\ I'll phone Zoo Med on June 4th to see what they say about your comparison of the 5.0 standard compact fluorescent with the 10.0 mini compact fluorescent @ 12 inches.

Does Arcadia's Pro ShadeDweller T5 UVB kit list a minimum enclosure length?
 
Marillion

Marillion

Member
Elizabeth Freer said:
Hang onto the 10.0 mini compact fluorescent until you hear from me again.

/\ I'll phone Zoo Med on June 4th to see what they say about your comparison of the 5.0 standard compact fluorescent with the 10.0 mini compact fluorescent @ 12 inches.

Does Arcadia's Pro ShadeDweller T5 UVB kit list a minimum enclosure length?
Click to expand...


Thanks Elizabeth. I have asked about my enclosure length with John Smith from Arcadia. I'll let you know what he says.
 
Marillion

Marillion

Member
I received a reply from John already! Arcadia has some pretty great customer service. He helped me out with the deep heat projector as well a couple of weeks ago.

Here is John's reply about the ShadeDweller fixture:

HI,

No, 30” if fine. The kit is 12” long, so using in a 30” viv will provide a nice gentle gradient from light and heat into cool and shade.
.

Best wishes.

John Courteney-Smith MRSB
Arcadia Reptile; Head of Science and Innovation


Also to my question about the Deep Heat projector in an 8.5" dome over the warm area already:

Yes, that’s fine, get it as snug up to the warm side as possible or reduce the dome size.

But its still all fine. Or, put it front to back, all we are doing is creating a basking zone. You can use it lengthways or from front to back. Whatever suits your viv space.

John Courteney-Smith MRSB
Arcadia Reptile; Head of Science and Innovation.

For reference Elizabeth, here is the link to the product page for the ShadeDweller. Shows effective distance and length of fixture:

https://www.arcadiareptile.com/lighting/shadedweller-prot5/

I am holding on to the ZooMed 10.0 Mini Flourescent Bulb for now. Per your instructions. To be honest, the ZooMed 10.0 would fit the enclosure better and be a bit more cost effective right now. But I want to do whats best for our little guy, and of course I do know the Arcadia ShadeDweller is a better product.

Oh, and I am sorry I have not included a picture yet of the terrarium. My life is just so busy I completely forgot to take a picture last night. I promise the picture will be posted soon. I will try for tonight.
 
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Marillion

Marillion

Member
Sg612 said:
The wooden enclosure towards the bottom of the page is a very good example of how to use it in the safest way possible, an option. But please don’t replicate the decor(looking at it makes my skin hurt:biggrin:)
Click to expand...

Not that my tank looks like that or that I was thinking of replicating it...but why does that setup make your skin hurt? :)
 
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