Yet another NZ bust?
- Thread starter Geitje
- Start date
Southernman
New member
Hmm.
These guys were broadcast over national TV in New Zealand.
You don't need permission in this case.
These guys were broadcast over national TV in New Zealand.
You don't need permission in this case.
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Foreign gecko smugglers face jail, deportation - National - Video - 3 News
Bail granted in gecko-theft case - National - NZ Herald News
here and lots of other NZ links, see the link bar on bottom
best
Tom
Interesting thread. This is the exact reason why it's hard to be a legitimate, foreign researcher in NZ and be a member of these forums. Especially if Price posts regularly (when not in jail I suppose)!! Makes sense now why I was searched when I was in NZ last. I would be suspicious too knowing I'm associated with his lot...
oli
New member
Those geckos are amazing. So they went there and captured these geckos from the wild first, or they most likely had someone do it for them before they arrived? Hopefully the animals and their offspring will survive and be returned to their native area. Maybe the fine/penalty should be more since these were wildcaught rather than captive bred? At the pace that they reproduce, the rat problem, and poaching one can only predict when they will be completely eradicated from NZ. That's no doubt pretty sad. Stuffing them in tubes is harsh, it didn't seem like they cared much for the animals, and if they did maybe they would have tried to smuggle half the amount in larger containers rather than tubes. There's a difference in putting a gecko known to fit in small crevices in a deli cup and putting a specie like this in a deli cup let alone a tight tube. I think they should start captive breeding programs for these animals at this stage so they don't become endangered or go extinct. That would be a real shame.
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Oli ~
Perhaps captive breeding programs make sense now for endangered NZ species!
Perhaps captive breeding programs make sense now for endangered NZ species!
Geitje
New member
Breeding programs, both inside and outside of NZ, have always made sense. Either control the populations in captivity or in nature, and since the DOC of NZ cannot control the latter (ex. illegal collecting, and moreover introduced pests/predators), the former makes better sense. However, due to the over-publicized supply and demand for these species, the DOC is naturally and rightfully jazzed-up over protecting these animals by whatever means they can. Unfortunately, their methods are falling short on both fronts (illegal collecting and declining populations). I doubt they will ever be able to exert full control over both pressures on natural populations, so perhaps they can alleviate some of these pressures by implementing carefully controlled breeding programs -both in NZ and with credible breeders/institutions abroad.
Jon
Southernman
New member
I've heard through the grapevine there is a breeding programme being set up for the Coromandel Striped gecko (Hoplodactylus stephensi).
Yay at last someone is thinking long term - thank God!
Yay at last someone is thinking long term - thank God!
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Hooray, Phil ~
Many thanks for posting this wonderful news! :banana: I am very much hoping that other breeding programs will follow. It is a serious understatement to say that NZ has many wonderful four-legged jewels :biggrin:. It is heartbreaking to note their decline.
Many thanks for posting this wonderful news! :banana: I am very much hoping that other breeding programs will follow. It is a serious understatement to say that NZ has many wonderful four-legged jewels :biggrin:. It is heartbreaking to note their decline.
Southernman
New member
Yeah Elizabeth,
I'm really pleased as well. This has been a long time in coming. I'm hoping that there will be more of a change of heart & that captivity will not be looked down as a dirty word.
There are some seriously talented herpetoculturalists within New Zealand who have decades of experiences with some of the worlds most beautiful gecko's (and skinks). Not that I'm prejudiced! Far from it! Ha ha!
I'm really pleased as well. This has been a long time in coming. I'm hoping that there will be more of a change of heart & that captivity will not be looked down as a dirty word.
There are some seriously talented herpetoculturalists within New Zealand who have decades of experiences with some of the worlds most beautiful gecko's (and skinks). Not that I'm prejudiced! Far from it! Ha ha!
Hypocrisy
Looking at the first few posts of this thread one word strikes my mind..
Its called Hypocrisy:
Hypocrisy is the act of persistently professing beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that are inconsistent with one's actions. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie.
Hypocrisy may come from a desire to hide from others actual motives or feelings, or stem from pride (vainglory).
Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself.
Many of the guys from Europe and the US with the biggest mouths here in this thread would be among the first in line at the tables if those geckos or cb babies of them had ended up in europe at a expo or alike.
My passion for these geckos may or may not have outweighed my moral thinking. Yet im not going to creep in a hole in shame for I have paid for my mistake.
Every single gecko was in perfect health and passed through DOC's 30 day quarantine perfectly and was released back to nature.
I personally, however do believe, that over the next years more of them will die (be eaten by introduces pests) in "nature" then they would have, had they reached Europe, where they would have built a breeding block.
If anyone feels im the Antichrist of Geckos, then go ahead and vent you anger.. for you have the right to express your mind just as I do.
Looking at the first few posts of this thread one word strikes my mind..
Its called Hypocrisy:
Hypocrisy is the act of persistently professing beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that are inconsistent with one's actions. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie.
Hypocrisy may come from a desire to hide from others actual motives or feelings, or stem from pride (vainglory).
Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself.
Many of the guys from Europe and the US with the biggest mouths here in this thread would be among the first in line at the tables if those geckos or cb babies of them had ended up in europe at a expo or alike.
My passion for these geckos may or may not have outweighed my moral thinking. Yet im not going to creep in a hole in shame for I have paid for my mistake.
Every single gecko was in perfect health and passed through DOC's 30 day quarantine perfectly and was released back to nature.
I personally, however do believe, that over the next years more of them will die (be eaten by introduces pests) in "nature" then they would have, had they reached Europe, where they would have built a breeding block.
If anyone feels im the Antichrist of Geckos, then go ahead and vent you anger.. for you have the right to express your mind just as I do.
oli
New member
I respect your honesty and opinion, and for coming out and speaking up for yourself. You may be correct in assuming that I would possibly purchase these geckos if I could afford them after a few generations in captivity as this particular specie is amazing. Couldn't you have tried to take captive born animals from the country rather than wild caught one's, I just think that would have made a big difference? That must have been tough to catch or have someone catch all these wild elusive geckos for you. There is another thread about captive breeding programs which is interesting. Whether those programs will be made available overseas is even another issue. I'm happy that the animals made it back to the wild, whether they will be poached or eaten by rats, who knows? How much of a fine did you have to pay and how long were you locked up for? I don't think smuggling is right, but I am supporting it by owning captive bred ancestors of these types of geckos, even if I was ignorant to that fact when purchasing them.
Southernman
New member
Well now. I'm certainly no hypocrite, I'm a New Zealander or Kiwi.
You are quite brazen coming out & owning up to being one of the poachers caught in New Zealand.
I think your comment that the gecko's will probably be eaten by introduced predators in coming years smacks of convincing yourself that your actions were justified.
You say you've paid for your mistake. Not really, the law is incredibly weak & all you've had is a slap on the wrist. Have you been banned from returning to New Zealand, I doubt it! But you should be.
I have a passion for gecko's as well. I suspect your real motivation was greed, money, not a passion for gecko's with a "higher" ideal of getting them to breed because of potential threats to their future.
I'm well connected with many herpetologists around New Zelaand, it is after all a small field, especially within New Zealand.
You call other forum users hypocrites?! To be honest that's pretty rich coming from you.
Do I see you as the antichrist of gecko's. No.
But stay away from New Zealand in future, your actions have proven that you are part of the problem not part of the solution for the future of New Zealand gecko's.
You are quite brazen coming out & owning up to being one of the poachers caught in New Zealand.
I think your comment that the gecko's will probably be eaten by introduced predators in coming years smacks of convincing yourself that your actions were justified.
You say you've paid for your mistake. Not really, the law is incredibly weak & all you've had is a slap on the wrist. Have you been banned from returning to New Zealand, I doubt it! But you should be.
I have a passion for gecko's as well. I suspect your real motivation was greed, money, not a passion for gecko's with a "higher" ideal of getting them to breed because of potential threats to their future.
I'm well connected with many herpetologists around New Zelaand, it is after all a small field, especially within New Zealand.
You call other forum users hypocrites?! To be honest that's pretty rich coming from you.
Do I see you as the antichrist of gecko's. No.
But stay away from New Zealand in future, your actions have proven that you are part of the problem not part of the solution for the future of New Zealand gecko's.
A gecko lover would have take one or two pairs for himself, not so many!
To take so many, your only reason could be to get some hundred tousand Euros out of it!
So, don´t compare yourself with one of the people who might be tempted to get one of this animals!
@Southernman
My post was directed at some of the (not all) people from Europe and the US posting in the beginning of this thread as being hypocrites. And the ones I meant know who I meant. I have not directed it at you being from NZ.
@Geckotom
The 16 geckos being worth "hundreds of thousands of Euro" is just not true.
The 16 geckos divided by the 2 people involved is 8 animals each. I would consider 3.5 more likely to be a breeding group and not a scam to make hundreds of thousands of euro as If it were for the money it would have been easy enough to collect 50 if that had been the goal, but it never was.
I have seen the rat traps, they are there for a good reason. All are laid out exactly the same way with whole chicken eggs, covered by a box. Im not a rat specialist but I could imagine that rats are smart enough to start avoiding eggs in boxes and start chewing on tasty geckos when seeing a dead fellow rat here and there in the traps. This is just my personal view after having been there and seen the (micro)habitats. I might be totally wrong but it is the impression that it gave me and I do believe that rats pose the greatest danger to the geckos by far over any other factor.
Don't all the grayii and elegans in europe originate from animals that were smuggled years ago ?
As long as one can have a healthy informative discussion I gladly will try to contribute to this discussion and answer if there are questions but I will not get involved in discussions that spiral down to anything less than a healthy discussion or deteriorate into personal arguments.
My post was directed at some of the (not all) people from Europe and the US posting in the beginning of this thread as being hypocrites. And the ones I meant know who I meant. I have not directed it at you being from NZ.
@Geckotom
The 16 geckos being worth "hundreds of thousands of Euro" is just not true.
The 16 geckos divided by the 2 people involved is 8 animals each. I would consider 3.5 more likely to be a breeding group and not a scam to make hundreds of thousands of euro as If it were for the money it would have been easy enough to collect 50 if that had been the goal, but it never was.
I have seen the rat traps, they are there for a good reason. All are laid out exactly the same way with whole chicken eggs, covered by a box. Im not a rat specialist but I could imagine that rats are smart enough to start avoiding eggs in boxes and start chewing on tasty geckos when seeing a dead fellow rat here and there in the traps. This is just my personal view after having been there and seen the (micro)habitats. I might be totally wrong but it is the impression that it gave me and I do believe that rats pose the greatest danger to the geckos by far over any other factor.
Don't all the grayii and elegans in europe originate from animals that were smuggled years ago ?
As long as one can have a healthy informative discussion I gladly will try to contribute to this discussion and answer if there are questions but I will not get involved in discussions that spiral down to anything less than a healthy discussion or deteriorate into personal arguments.
Geitje
New member
Your boldness for coming on here and expressing your motives and morals for doing what you have done is certainly courageous. However, considering the “market value” of Naultinus gemmeus on the European market suggests that perhaps financial motivation might be very important, and if for nothing else overrode the ability to respect the fragile position of the species and those who are in the jurisdiction of making the decisions (whether poor or great) applicable to their native species. There are certainly more common, less rare, and less "expensive" NZ species that are obtainable to satisfy one’s passion, and moreover a simpler protocol or method of doing so. Knowing the precarious condition of the population for this species it still seems pompous for someone to come in and snuff these animals out of their last refuges. And, you might be absolutely right concerning the overall realistic picture of the plight for this endangered species, but what gives any foreigner the right to come and remove them as the supreme and final judge of how their future should be handled?
I, for one, would not buy these animals in Europe or the USA – for obvious reasons. I would also not consider buying other equally and highly endangered species such as: tuataras, Hoplodactylus rakiurae and plowshare tortoises. Respecting the structure for line of command, and understanding one’s position in it comes to mind.
Not all grayi and elegans in captivity outside of NZ are illegal - that's for sure! I know of multiple occasions where legal exports have left NZ over the last 25 years - 2 cases right here in my home state in the USA! I also know of multiple legal occasions in Europe as well. Futhermore, the exports were not limited to grayi and elegans, but also Hoplo pacificus, granulatus and maculatus. I also know of legally exported N. rudis and stellatus, and saw teh animals and permits with my own eyes.
What do you hope to draw from this discussion anyway? Deflecting accountability and lack of respect to others who presumably share similar moralistic ideals?
I, for one, would not buy these animals in Europe or the USA – for obvious reasons. I would also not consider buying other equally and highly endangered species such as: tuataras, Hoplodactylus rakiurae and plowshare tortoises. Respecting the structure for line of command, and understanding one’s position in it comes to mind.
Not all grayi and elegans in captivity outside of NZ are illegal - that's for sure! I know of multiple occasions where legal exports have left NZ over the last 25 years - 2 cases right here in my home state in the USA! I also know of multiple legal occasions in Europe as well. Futhermore, the exports were not limited to grayi and elegans, but also Hoplo pacificus, granulatus and maculatus. I also know of legally exported N. rudis and stellatus, and saw teh animals and permits with my own eyes.
What do you hope to draw from this discussion anyway? Deflecting accountability and lack of respect to others who presumably share similar moralistic ideals?
Hi Jon
Im a little surprised at your post.
Didnt you personally even encourage and give me advise in several email messages when I was living in Kenya on how to find geckos (H. taylori) by eye-shining when I would travel to Somalia ? Weren't they thought to be very rare as well at that point ? You didn't seem so opposed to collecting wild geckos those days. Didn't you even ask me if you could join me to Somalia at one point to go gecko hunting together ???
Im sure I recall that email from you. Its not like we are strangers.
I didnt hope to draw anything other from this discussion than to put my point of view down aswell.
Im a little surprised at your post.
Didnt you personally even encourage and give me advise in several email messages when I was living in Kenya on how to find geckos (H. taylori) by eye-shining when I would travel to Somalia ? Weren't they thought to be very rare as well at that point ? You didn't seem so opposed to collecting wild geckos those days. Didn't you even ask me if you could join me to Somalia at one point to go gecko hunting together ???
Im sure I recall that email from you. Its not like we are strangers.
I didnt hope to draw anything other from this discussion than to put my point of view down aswell.
Geitje
New member
It was I who emailed you while living in Kenya, and who took much time and energy in explaining how to eye-shine geckos. It was also I who painstakingly made an entire list of Hemidactylus and their info for you as well. So, my interest was in obscure Hemidactylus species, as eye-shining does not work effectively (if at all) for ANY Eublepharine geckos – and H. taylori is a Eublepharine gecko. All Eublepharine geckos shun eye-shine just as we humans do when bright lights hit our eyes – we close them with movable eyelids – a characteristic not shared by ANY member of the Gekkonidae, including all species of Hemidactylus. So, sure I’d like to show you how to eye-shine geckos in Somalia. We can export them together legally, just as you did while living in Kenya. Again, following the protocols for acquiring animals by shipping them via airlines, permits, etc. was what the entire geckoworld believed was transpiring with the shipments of Hemitheconyx taylori. Or, perhaps you are divulging that all of the Hemitheconyx taylori shipments to the USA and Europe were not shipped legally from Africa?
We are all certainly indebted to you for assisting in bringing H. taylori into captivity, but I think the circumstances were quite different than with the N. gemmeus. And actually, I’d probably be more interested in seeing some of the Somalian Hemidactylus in my terrariums than I would N. gemmeus anyway, as such a philosophy and interest in the “cheap and lowly species” already exists with my collection and evidenced with my offerings of captive born surplus (currently around 15 species of surplus Hemidactylus;-)).
ps. needless to say, I never heard anything more about any Hemidactylus you may have found, or never any offered, despite the fact that you undoubtedly found them. Perhaps they too were far too economically unimportant in the big picture to make it into captivity?
We are all certainly indebted to you for assisting in bringing H. taylori into captivity, but I think the circumstances were quite different than with the N. gemmeus. And actually, I’d probably be more interested in seeing some of the Somalian Hemidactylus in my terrariums than I would N. gemmeus anyway, as such a philosophy and interest in the “cheap and lowly species” already exists with my collection and evidenced with my offerings of captive born surplus (currently around 15 species of surplus Hemidactylus;-)).
ps. needless to say, I never heard anything more about any Hemidactylus you may have found, or never any offered, despite the fact that you undoubtedly found them. Perhaps they too were far too economically unimportant in the big picture to make it into captivity?
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siouxie
New member
unfortunately, forums all around the world have members which think threads and posts have to agree with their views or the infidels must be flamed.
good on you for putting your views across. at least, if nothing else, everybody gets a full account of the incident, and many versions don't merge to create an urban myth.
TOM_P you are a courageous and brave soul, at least you can sleep well at night. secretly, they all share your passion and do understand your position. some people just love to 'kick a man when he's down'. ironically, the word that springs to mind is derived from the german language, "schadenfreude".
be aware, there are indeed people who would support you whatever your misdemeanours. you have a strong character and will get through all this i am sure.