Grit
- Thread starter Yuk
- Start date
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Thank you for the welcomeMy husbandry deviates from your guidelines a bit, but I appreciate your taking the time to provide all of that information. A leopard gecko breeder told me very specifically to avoid all D3 and just use pure calcium, so I am going to stick with that for now. I'm really cautious to deviate too much from a certain husbandry style.
Hi ~
You are quite welcome.
I totally understand that there is more than one way to raise a healthy leo. I understand your reluctance to "go with" information received from complete strangers.We have gathered proven leopard gecko husbandry information from personal experiences and from the "extended" experiences of others.
About hydration and your water bowl: It is very important for a leo to have access to a warm moist hide 24/7. Not a good idea to have a cool and wet leo. Respiratory infections can result. The warmth from the UTH generates the required humidity to keep your leo hydrated and assist with sheds.
Another source of vitamin D3 is to provide UVB lighting with caution. If you feed your crickets a diet that contains vitamin D3 that is also quite good.
What do you feed your crickets?
I will quote a post about the interactions of vitamin D3, calcium, and vitamins written by GU's mod Hilde. Let us know what you think.
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Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
#22---***GU's Mod Hilde on Calcium, Vitamin A, & D3 interactions, et cetera***
VITAMIN A:
: Promotes bone growth, teeth development.
: Helps form and maintain healthy skin, hair, mucous membranes.
: Builds body's resistance to respiratory infections.
: Essential for normal function of retina. Combines with purple pigment of retina (opsin) to form rhodopsin, which is necessary for sight in partial darkness.
: Necessary for proper testicular function, ovarian function, embryonic development, regulation of growth, differentiation of tissues.
VITAMIN D:
: Plays a key role in the absorption of calcium for bone and tooth development.
: Affects cardiovascular health, immune system, cancer prevention
: Has a major role in muscle development & strength
: Key role in mental health and depression avoidance
VITAMINS A & D interaction with other substances:
: Calcium decreases absorption of fat-soluble Vitamins A, D, E and K.
You can't see the Vitamin A shortage easily, except for possibly poor vision and/or aim when hunting. Rough skin is usually shrugged off as a 'bit of a bad shed' and hope it works better next time. If not.... well, we'll just remove the stuck skin with a cotton pad.
Lethargy and weakness might be chalked up to many things including boredom or brumation, never a thought that it could hint at a Vitamin D shortage.
CALCIUM - excess:
Excess calcium in the digestive tract can hinder absorption of Vitamin A and D (we won't worry about E & K here). MBD is often considered to be caused by a shortage of calcium, but can happen even though there is ample calcium available. If there's not enough Vit D available, either stored in the liver absorbed via food/supplements, then there won't be enough calcium absorbed. If you suspect a calcium shortage, it's easy to increase the amount available by dusting more often, even to the point of 'icing' the bugs with calcium, all of which just puts more calcium into the intestines but allowing less and less Vitamin A & D to be absorbed.... a vicious circle. The result is a gecko with possible MBD (even if it's on calcium substrate and gets calcium supplement), and a severe shortage of Vitamin A & D.
And so it continues.... more calcium, less vitamin A & D.
The next big worry is the next generation. The offspring of parents with Vitamin A and/or D imbalance can affect the young - they might hatch tiny, maybe shorter than normal tails, missing or deformed eyelids, a pouch-like flap of skin under the chin (looks like a tiny dewlap), weak, poor vision or even blind, weak or even deformed bones, including skull. It gets shrugged off as one of those things, after all, even in the wild they don't all hatch perfect.
Who would have thought that it could be traced to excess calcium?
Some people shy away from supplementing with pre-formed Vitamin A. It's been proven that geckos need it, they can't convert beta-carotene well enough to make do with just that. If the parents of your gecko were only supplemented with beta-carotene, no pre-formed Vit A, then they were prime candidates for a Vit A deficiency, and their offspring suffered the consequences. At the very least, add some pre-formed Vit A to the supplements a few times a month. Most can be beta-carotene, but the bit of pre-formed A will tide them over until they get enough beta-carotene converted."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Related post #48 here: Can plain calcium carbonate be overdosed? Check link from post #5 onwards......
Leos having health issues,setup question
Edit: More info on post #48 can be provided if you wish.
VITAMIN A:
: Promotes bone growth, teeth development.
: Helps form and maintain healthy skin, hair, mucous membranes.
: Builds body's resistance to respiratory infections.
: Essential for normal function of retina. Combines with purple pigment of retina (opsin) to form rhodopsin, which is necessary for sight in partial darkness.
: Necessary for proper testicular function, ovarian function, embryonic development, regulation of growth, differentiation of tissues.
VITAMIN D:
: Plays a key role in the absorption of calcium for bone and tooth development.
: Affects cardiovascular health, immune system, cancer prevention
: Has a major role in muscle development & strength
: Key role in mental health and depression avoidance
VITAMINS A & D interaction with other substances:
: Calcium decreases absorption of fat-soluble Vitamins A, D, E and K.
You can't see the Vitamin A shortage easily, except for possibly poor vision and/or aim when hunting. Rough skin is usually shrugged off as a 'bit of a bad shed' and hope it works better next time. If not.... well, we'll just remove the stuck skin with a cotton pad.
Lethargy and weakness might be chalked up to many things including boredom or brumation, never a thought that it could hint at a Vitamin D shortage.
CALCIUM - excess:
Excess calcium in the digestive tract can hinder absorption of Vitamin A and D (we won't worry about E & K here). MBD is often considered to be caused by a shortage of calcium, but can happen even though there is ample calcium available. If there's not enough Vit D available, either stored in the liver absorbed via food/supplements, then there won't be enough calcium absorbed. If you suspect a calcium shortage, it's easy to increase the amount available by dusting more often, even to the point of 'icing' the bugs with calcium, all of which just puts more calcium into the intestines but allowing less and less Vitamin A & D to be absorbed.... a vicious circle. The result is a gecko with possible MBD (even if it's on calcium substrate and gets calcium supplement), and a severe shortage of Vitamin A & D.
And so it continues.... more calcium, less vitamin A & D.
The next big worry is the next generation. The offspring of parents with Vitamin A and/or D imbalance can affect the young - they might hatch tiny, maybe shorter than normal tails, missing or deformed eyelids, a pouch-like flap of skin under the chin (looks like a tiny dewlap), weak, poor vision or even blind, weak or even deformed bones, including skull. It gets shrugged off as one of those things, after all, even in the wild they don't all hatch perfect.
Who would have thought that it could be traced to excess calcium?
Some people shy away from supplementing with pre-formed Vitamin A. It's been proven that geckos need it, they can't convert beta-carotene well enough to make do with just that. If the parents of your gecko were only supplemented with beta-carotene, no pre-formed Vit A, then they were prime candidates for a Vit A deficiency, and their offspring suffered the consequences. At the very least, add some pre-formed Vit A to the supplements a few times a month. Most can be beta-carotene, but the bit of pre-formed A will tide them over until they get enough beta-carotene converted."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Related post #48 here: Can plain calcium carbonate be overdosed? Check link from post #5 onwards......
Leos having health issues,setup question
Edit: More info on post #48 can be provided if you wish.
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
You are most welcome.
On GU you will find more than a handful of leos suffering from metabolic bone disease. Once MBD begins it can only be controlled, never totally reversed. :-(
Actually leos are crepuscular and nocturnal. They are also active at dawn and at dusk.
Forgive me for copying "large" posts. If you ever discover information contradictory to what I share, be sure to PM me.
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Yuk
New member
What is the difference between vitamin D and D3? I feed my crickets the following: Flukers High Calcium diet, shredded carrots, kale, chick starter feed, a few kibbles of ToTW dog food, occassionally broccoli and radishes. The veggies are small portions so that the crickets will eat it all and not let it rot Once I see they have eaten it all, I add fresh chunks.
Would the geckos be able to get some vitamin D from a window? I have two on either side of the tank, covered by some trees outside, but natural sunlight does enter the room. It's just indirect.
Would the geckos be able to get some vitamin D from a window? I have two on either side of the tank, covered by some trees outside, but natural sunlight does enter the room. It's just indirect.
Completeleopard
New member
Hello,
Be careful with the amount of protein in the feeders you give your Leo's not sure about percentages, but I think Elizabeth does!
Be careful with the amount of protein in the feeders you give your Leo's not sure about percentages, but I think Elizabeth does!
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
I just know that it is vitamin D3 that geckos and humans require in order to metabolize calcium.
Indirect sunlight through a nearby window will not help at all. Direct sunlight shining upon a vivarium could seriously overheat the vivarium.
I used Flukers' High Calcium Cricket Food in the past. :-( It has been proven not to significantly increase the calcium level of the crickets fed. Now I use Albers' All Purpose Poultry Feed. Other poultry feeds might also work. One key ingredient of the poultry feed is vitamin A acetate, which is very necessary in very small amounts for healthy eyes and skin.
Kale is a calcium binder (making calcium unavailable). I occasionally add collard greens and pesticide-free dandelion flowers/greens to the Albers'. Some crickets will eat alfalfa hay. Watercress is recommended if you can find some. Dog food is not recommended.
We wish to feed crickets foods that increase the calcium content of crickets since they are calcium deficient. That's the reason to concentrate on foods which have ratios of 1.5-2.0 calcium : 1.0 phosphorus.
Click: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...-feeding-issues/68574-cricket-guidelines.html
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Yuk
New member
Thanks for your advice. I don't know how we got from grit to cricket food lol but I hope this topic isn't too far gone with the details of my husbandry and care sheets. It's all good information, but I feel like I am on the defensive about the care I am giving my geckos after a lot of painstaking research on a topic having to do with grit. I appreciate that you are trying to help me and possibly save some heart breaking mistakes, but I feel like all the advice and questions completely derailed this thread where I am genuinely curious about the digestive system of a leopard gecko and why some breeders use grit, pros and cons sort of thing. Maybe I'm completely off base with this question, but since I had seen it in caresheets and breeder websites, I felt I should better understand the choice.
So getting back to grit:
I haven't heard of using grit for leopard geckos to aid in digestion, but I have definitely not heard everything and would not dismiss it out of hand. I can tell you that even though I don't provide anything like this for my leopard geckos, my cages are not sterile and pristine, so I'm sure there is stuff in there that would do the job if the job actually needs to be done. I would be interested to know who does recommend this and to see if there is more info or actual research about this on the internet.
I have read information suggesting that leopard geckos have pretty short digestive tracts which is why there's so much concern about impaction. I can see why you'd be concerned to provide something to aid in digestion if it's necessary that would also not cause impaction. I do think it's important to consider the question carefully before dismissing it out of hand.
Aliza
I haven't heard of using grit for leopard geckos to aid in digestion, but I have definitely not heard everything and would not dismiss it out of hand. I can tell you that even though I don't provide anything like this for my leopard geckos, my cages are not sterile and pristine, so I'm sure there is stuff in there that would do the job if the job actually needs to be done. I would be interested to know who does recommend this and to see if there is more info or actual research about this on the internet.
I have read information suggesting that leopard geckos have pretty short digestive tracts which is why there's so much concern about impaction. I can see why you'd be concerned to provide something to aid in digestion if it's necessary that would also not cause impaction. I do think it's important to consider the question carefully before dismissing it out of hand.
Aliza
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
How this thread got from grit to cricket food is that all husbandry is genuinely connected.
Some people do keep older leos on sand. Most do not recommend sand for young leos. However, that's a choice we make. I have seen far too many genuine and fatal stories of impaction to recommend any particulate substrate. Maybe if all husbandry is top notch yes, but still not for young leos. Why risk it? For many nOObs there is a steep learning curve.
If you need some impaction tales, I can link an especially sad one.
Perhaps someone here knows the ins and outs of a leo's digestive tract. I don't.
I am sorry for derailing your thread. :-(
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Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
If proper heat, hydration, humidity, and/or nutrition are lacking the greater the probability of impaction. Other things besides sand can cause impaction.
Please click: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...32-my-leo-peach-her-fight-sand-impaction.html
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Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
JIMI
New member
Using grit as a means of promoting healthy digestion in your geckos seems very risky and unnecessary. It's more likely that it will cause impaction rather than prevent it. I think that it would be best if you focus on providing proper care and perfecting your husbandry as a means of avoiding impaction and other illnesses rather than messing with additional supplements (well if grit is considered as a supplement). If you are very interested in this subject then I think you should talk with a reptile veterinarian and see what they say about grit rather than just relying on the opinions of the breeder. You might just be able to call a good doctor and ask them for their opinion. As you read in that link sand truly does more harm than good:sad:. If you are finding undigested food items in your leos' stools then you might want to take a fecal sample to the vet and have them examined for parasites.
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JIMI
New member
Check this out: Pet Columns, Office of Public Engagement, College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Also, please look up "Understanding Calcium, UVB and Vitamin D3 in Lizards". Look for the link with that exact title. It is a thread on another forum that is very helpful.
Make sure to do a looot of research (that is backed up by science) before deciding that that breeder is right. Remember, most breeders do things certain ways to save money and although they may not have bad intentions they are not always the healthiest methods. The fact that they told you that they did not need vitamin D3 should already be a red flag.
Also, please look up "Understanding Calcium, UVB and Vitamin D3 in Lizards". Look for the link with that exact title. It is a thread on another forum that is very helpful.
Make sure to do a looot of research (that is backed up by science) before deciding that that breeder is right. Remember, most breeders do things certain ways to save money and although they may not have bad intentions they are not always the healthiest methods. The fact that they told you that they did not need vitamin D3 should already be a red flag.
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Completeleopard
New member
A good article regarding UV Lighting and understanding Vitamin D and Vitamin D3. I thought I'd put it here as well, for future reference and to help anyone else.
UV Lighting for Reptiles: Vitamin D synthesis in Ultraviolet Light
UV Lighting for Reptiles: Vitamin D synthesis in Ultraviolet Light
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Have shared those 3 links on sunlight and D3 in post #85. Many thanks.